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Marcusoz

Fix the Titan Chests

23 posts in this topic

You really need to do something about the value of Titan chests - right now they don't measure up for any player with experience.

I, and many others, are getting sick of fighting in wars to get all the titan chests only to open them and find items that are weaker than what we already have or overlap what we have - while other heroes who could really use good items go without.  Also the number of actual titan items inside a titan chest is pathetic - populating them with useless lower level items is just frustrating.

Surely you could do something to ensure that more items are useful? It would increase player satisfaction a great deal - and right now if you read your forums you should see that quite a few of us customers are starting to get peeved. You let that keep going and you lose paying customers.

CaptainMorgan likes this

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The chests themselves got majorly buffed a month ago. They almost never have resources in them and usually at least couple of gold items. But I think the overall quality of the gear was lowered to compensate.

CaptainMorgan likes this

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Hey @Marcusoz, as @dumpster mentioned, we have recently improved these chests, they will contain at least one Titan Item, and 5 Godlike Items (no item will be lower than Godlike).

We have been looking into this claim that item quality has reduced with the new updates, but we have definitely not implemented any changes in this area, and the statistics show that the items have not become weaker.

However, it is true that as you reach the very highest levels in the game, if you have a lot of very good items, you will receive fewer and fewer items which are better than your current ones, because you already have them at maximum strength. We do not allow items to increase in power forever, as that would make it very easy to be overpowered in a short space of time. Once your items are maxed out, until you increase in level, you won't get better items than you currently have.

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Yes and no. Each time you gain an Ascension Level the items you find have the potential to be stronger by one quality "level". The only problem is if you have found all the maximum items at Ascension Level 114, then levelled up to Ascension Level 115, the difference in the item quality increase would be small compared to if (for example) you went from 105 to 115.

Because of this (if you already have amazing items) you will rarely find items with a higher quality than those you had at 114. In fact you could only do so around 80 times until you're maxed (once per slot). Since you're probably used to your items constantly getting better, hitting the item quality cap likely feels like you're no longer getting good items.

The longer you stay at 115, the less likely it is that you will find better items, as each of your items hits the maximum quality cap.

However, a Hero at Ascension Level 115 has the potential to be 5 item quality levels higher than one at 110, once you find all the items.

That is to say - yes you're correct, in the same way that you would be correct to say that when you go from level 4 to level 5 your Hero needs items before it reaches it maximum strength. The main difference being that when you're at Ascension Level 4 you likely don't have maxed items since you're not at 4 for long, which means you still find better items in most chests. Once you reach levels in the 100s you stay at those levels for much longer, and probably already have max, or near max items for that Ascension Level, so you find less "better" items.

If you stayed at Ascension Level 4 and maxed your items, then levelled up to Ascension Level 5, you would notice the same phenomenon as you are currently experiencing.

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Posted (edited)

How do quality level increases compare to hero degradation when you level up? My main issue is that heroes get worse evenly and universally when you level up, and the only way to counteract that is by getting better gear -- which is randomized in countless different ways: the hero that can use the gear, the slot that it fills, the type of buff or resistance that it grants, and the raw statistics of the item. It's one thing to just tread water and not improve because the RNG gives you gear that's not as strong as the gear you're currently using, but it's not a satisfying experience to actually get worse as you progress in the game.

 

One way to fix this would be crafting. It's been brought up before, but if you could do *something* with the sub-optimal gear it would at least feel more satisfying. Like with one of my heroes, I haven't gotten a good cooldown cape for a LONG time, to the point where it's feeling noticeable.  If I could enhance that old cloak with new regeneration gear that I only seem to get, I'd be a happy camper.

Edited by dumpster

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When you gain an Ascension Level, your Heroes' base Health, Damage and Leadership increase also increase. If you max out your items a level 115 Hero can be up to 6% better stats-wise than a level 114 Hero. From this, for example, a 1% life on hit perk would then heal more health (in terms of raw numbers) on level 115 than on 114. This means you are, in the end, significantly stronger (based on my subjective opinion that 6% is significant), despite the time it takes to gain the new items.

Obviously the better you were at 114, the harder it is to get the better items. In the end it is the player's choice whether they are ok with the period where the items need to be found, or would rather stay at 114 and never have truly maxed-out Heroes, but then what is the cut-off point? Would you stop yourself levelling from 105 to 110, because you then need to find items? It's quite a strategic and personal choice, I suppose.

Obviously what also plays into this is that your defense strength increases when you gain an Ascension Level, and also if you want to stay at a lower level, you need to not upgrade something. So staying on 114 means that you will be weaker overall, not just with regards to Heroes.

 

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I guess it also depends on how advanced you are at your level 115. Because once you ding to this level, your items are a bit degraded but you haven't had any chance to receive/buy new items that were "level 115". On the other hand, if you've been level 115 for months, it's likely that you've open many chests, so you're more likely to be wearing maximized gear.

Also (different note but related topic) it seems to me that the "stastical range" (range between the worse and best item value you can get at a certain ascension level) increases with the levels.

For example:

lvl105 item average value would be like a 10k item +/20% (8-12)

lvl 110 a 13k item +/-30% (9-16)

lvl 115 a 15k items +/-40% (10-20)

I'm exaggerating a bit but is that correct or just an impression?

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1 minute ago, dumpster said:

What's the logic behind heroes degrading on ascension level up to begin with?

I would think the logic is to push people to reach (or buy) new items on a regular basis, and not only at the beginning :)

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1 minute ago, AwesomeDoud said:

I would think the logic is to push people to reach (or buy) new items on a regular basis, and not only at the beginning :)

But just the prospect of better gear would do that, too. Better gear would still be better.

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@dumpster The Heroes do not degrade. The items you have become less effective at higher levels (Hero base stats get stronger).

If, for example, your items give you 9,428 Health Regeneration: with your Hercules: at Ascension level 104, it gives you a Regeneration increase of 7% (note: Heroes have a base regen of 5%), if you increase your Ascension Level to 105, the item will still give you 9,428 Regeneration, but that may no longer be 7% of your Health. It works in a similar way with Cooldown, etc. your item still gives the same amount of Cooldown Reduction, but the amount needed to reach 20% reduction is higher.

@AwesomeDoud It is not quite so extreme. The min-max range percentage stays the same, so if it is a range of 20% at 10k you have a range from 8-12k, at 20k you'd have a range of 16-24k.

doomlord786 and AwesomeDoud like this

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Another example:

Imagine you found a cape with 15% Cooldown Bonus at Ascension Level 20 (which is very good). If you now level up and the item would stay at 15% you would probably never find a really good upgrade to this item. At some point you reach Ascension Level 100 and are still using your level 20 cape with bad Leadership value but high Cooldown Bonus. All those levels without finding a nice upgrade!

Some might say, why not start with lower values, e.g. 2% Cooldown Bonus at level 20 and then go up to 15% at max level? Because 2% are barely noticeable, as is an increase of ~1% every 10 Ascension Levels. We always want the stats to be meaningful, even if you just started playing the game we want you to notice the difference of having an item with Cooldown Bonus equipped or not. That's why players of all levels have the chance to find items which are powerful on their current level. And as Cpt. Morgan said, when you level up you need stronger items with higher values to keep the same percentages.

The problem with raw percentages in general is that they theoretically scale without you having to upgrade anything.

Example:

You are Ascension Level 10 and have 25% Physical Resistance.

A warrior hits you for 200 damage but your resistance mitigates this to 150 damage, protecting you from the remaining 50 damage.

Now you have levelled up to Ascension Level 100 and have the same 25% Physical resistance.

A warrior hits you for 2000 damage but your resistance mitigates this to 1500 damage, protecting you from the remaining 500 damage.

As you can see, the same percentage has mitigated 10x more damage on a higher level, which means that 25% at level 100 are way more powerful/valuable than 25% at level 10. This is why you need higher resistance values (as well as values for all other stats) at higher levels to get the same percentages.

I mean it's the same with damage and health values. Your enemies get stronger as you level up, so you need bigger numbers to be able to survive and beat them.

AwesomeDoud and doomlord786 like this

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Ok, I guess I'm dumb, but I still don't understand. If I'm ascension level 114 and I'm not wearing any cooldown gear, my Promethius will have 0% cooldown. If I put on a ring that gives 10,000 cooldown, it raises his listed cooldown percentage to 10% (not sure on actual numbers, but let's go with that).

When I level up to 115, wearing the same gear my cooldown % will be reduced to roughly 8 or 9%. If I take the gear off, the intrinsic cooldown is still 0%. How are the heroes base stats getting stronger?

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The innate cooldown bonus % of your Hero remains unchanged from level to level, the same with any innate Hero bonuses which they have without items (otherwise known as Perks on items). These include things such as Prometheus' innate Regeneration and Fire Resistance. By Base Stats we are referring to things such as Health, Leadership and Damage. These increase with every Ascension Level.

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Posted (edited)

So the hero does degrade on Ascension Level up, relative to Perks, right?
 

I guess the big complaint is that from a gut reaction level, players want to feel like they're always progressing. You expect that when you level up you're going to be stronger, and it's frustrating and unsatisfying to feel weaker on level up, especially when the "fix" is to get new gear which is completely random. I've gone for long stretches without getting gear for the heroes I use most often, or getting items that duplicate resistances on other items. Just from a design perspective, the player doesn't see that health and leadership increased on level up, or by how much -- but they do see that their ancient defender doesn't show resistances over 50% on their map any more, and things like smaller cooldown % are very easy to feel on level up.

Edited by dumpster

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No, when I say the innate cooldown bonus % stays the same, I mean the percentage stays the same, not the number. So your innate bonus will always be 20% if it is 20% at level 1. The innate perk bonuses remain the same, and the base stats increase. So the Heroes themselves don't degrade, they get stronger.

The items are the only things that become less effective, which means you're correct if you're saying that a Hero with items on does technically degrade on Ascension Level up, when talking about certain perks, such as cooldown bonus, which they get from Items only.

The Health on their items doesn't decrease, the Leadership doesn't, Damage doesn't, etc. etc. Only perks which use a number (such as 9035.2) that is then converted to a % in the stats screen "degrade" because a higher number is now needed (for example cooldown bonus).

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I guess it's splitting hairs. Either the items get worse or the heroes get worse. The end result is the same, and it's frustrating.

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It's true that it can feel like struggling at some point, if you level up it also gets better for many items. You still need luck for great items but you can get good stuff every now and then.

I think however it really sucks for the unique items to "degrade" when leveling up. They are already super rare to get, and it hurts to see them becoming less useful than a godlike item due to the change in ascension level.

Maybe you could have a system similar to "Eternium".

teDEsOs.jpg

Some rare very powerful items have the special ability to age with  the hero, so their stats increase each time the hero levels up. It would be cool to have something similar based on the ascension level, and only for the so wanted unique items. 🤔

Tomaxo likes this

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@doomlord786 There are no plans to do this in the near future, but there are ongoing discussions about whether this should be done, and if so how we would do it. We understand the downsides of the current system, and also the fact that it would be nice to have another way to use the items you don't want.

Tomaxo and doomlord786 like this

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