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LacunaC

Players using more than one account for pro league?

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That is exactly what I just said hours before the clarification. They made a blanket statement to not allow it, but will only exercise such powers arbitrarily on people they don't like. The game has become an even more realistic reflection of the real world -- a reflection of the powers of an Attorney General in many countries.

 

Cheers =D

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@MagischerKoenig's post sums it up very well, lol...

Independent of fg's (questionable) motivation to pursue cases of multi-accounting and account-sharing in general (i.e. particularly large-scale and severe cases left aside), they can ban ppl according to their ToS but they also can NOT ban people due to missing evidence.

Without sending undercover agents to all RR2 players' homes, they simply do not know who exactly plays any given single account, thus making it impossible to judge whether two particular accounts are played by the same person. Similarly, deciding whether 1 person plays 1 account from several different devices and/or locations, or multiple persons share the same account, is not always possibly, although in some cases easier to derive.

In cases where there is "evidence" such as people admitting having several accounts on the forums, fg would have to proof that this statement was legitly done by the account owner. Basically, nothing prevents you from creating a forum account under false name, or trying to somehow get access to someone else's forum account, or Facebook account for that matter, so unless they have reliable, "proven to be true" data that confirms ToS violations, banning can be legally risky for FG. And even then, as mentioned by others already, banning heavily paying players might not be what they want to do, as it makes them lose out on profit, unless the severity and/or publicity of a particular case of abuse is big enough to make it worth doing...

Thus, I am not really surprised by not having whitnessed a banning of considerable portions of the upper regions of the leaderboards.

And I agree that there proabably should be some clearer definitions of what is considered abusing or exploiting multiple accounts... and possibly legalizing having multiple accounts as long as done without abuse - due to a number of reasons, including but not limited to the fact that it was "forbidden but not persecuted" for a long time, it seems to be fairly widespread, it doesn't generally do harm (if done without abusing), and doing it is understandable (given there's no way back for any single account in order to re-experience lower level gameplay, progress the game from start again with different strategy, etc etc), besides increasing both active player base and revenue for FG.

 

Regarding pro league leaderboards in particular, I can clearly see this being particularly open to being exploited by multi-account-users in that they can try several times before doing the levels with their main account, given they are willing to spend additional gems on more pro tickets for all their accounts. But then again... watching videos of others doing pro league levels is not only allowed but even promoted by FG themselves: Their own employee Flothaboss (as well as other non-FG-employee-youtubers) regularly uploads pro league footage. So... where's the line, really? Let alone the very fact that Flothaboss as employee and 'content creator' is allowed to join the regular pro league competition despite definitely having an unfair advantage over everyone else without dev access. Rumours have it that he not only can try the levels as he wants but even might be involved in creating the levels in the first place. Now I don't wanna start arguing about that too much, it's FG's decision what they allow or disallow to their employees, but just saying... banning people paying for a 2nd try on pro league on their 2nd account while having someone openly get #1 with dev access might be perceived as weird depending on one's point of view.

That is not to say Flothaboss should be banned as well or that devs generally should be disallowed from playing RR2, but what I wanna say is that it is just not that simple as saying "meh, advantage in pro league = abuse = ban", especially with videos from various players providing an advantage to those participating later as well.

Thus, repeating from above, where to draw the line? That point needs discussion, and thoughts from FG if they really want fair competition for the pro leagues, independent of possibly banning some obvious cases of exploits or issuing an official statement saying "don't have multiple accounts, it's bad" that per-se changes nothing. I mean, really, that it's forbidden according to the ToS is long-known and unchanged, and that it is "tolerated" or at least not actively persecuted is a fact that didn't change as well.

 

For some practical suggestions, there's two options coming to my mind:

1. Allow purchasing and using additional pro league tickets for redoing pro leagues. Obviously, this is pay to win no matter what. And it requires limitation or heavy spenders can just repeat all over endlessly to try and improve their score.

2. Allow a "test defense" on the pro league levels. Test defense shows the time and % of completion, is NOT deducted from the available league time, and does NOT count towards your score. I.e. you can test a level for free, with no reward, as much as you want (or just not at all), and then you can have a real, regular go at it, earning crystals and reducing the league time pool same as currently. That way you can get used to the combo (something that may be a large factor for failure currently, as you have no way at all of testing out a pro league combo unless you have dev access or multiple accs), and use your skills to come up with a proper strategy for a stage. I mean for dungeons you have retries, for ninja the levels are similar/same for subsequent events, and you can always just wait for others to upload videos, so why not just allow active engagement of the player itself in order to do their best to do well on pro league levels by practicing them. And independent of practice, you can always mess up the actual raid, or consistently fail if you just are a bad raider. Only downside, "surprises" in pro league levels will be hard to pull off, for those that bother spending lots of time and effort on testing beforehand, at least.

Surely you will now say "oh that would make it too easy" - except that nope, it would not. With brand new levels and combos for every pro league, the difficulty balancing is entirely up to FG. This suggestion will lead to more average player practice for the raids, which could generally increase scores, but also make for more excitement and closer, possibly more interesting, score tables near the top. But then again, I remember FG said island 12 is balanced to be unbeatable and they'd be super surprised if anyone ever managed to beat them. Well, a bit of practice possibility could certainly make that challenge more interesting, and at the same time, all the practice in the world won't be able to overcome the impossible (if it really is and was meant to be impossible). So I don't really see an issue there. If there still are any, make the levels slightly harder to account for additional practice, for even more pro-worthy challenge to balance it out. Rank-based rewards are not subject to the change at all, and absolute-score-based / crystal-count-based rewards can certainly be slightly rebalanced should it appear necessary to account for potentially higher average scores when having the option to practice (if relevant at all, i.e. unless already compensated by slightly harder level design as mentioned above). This would not be pay to win, this would eliminate any incentives of using several accounts just to practice pro league.

 

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8 minutes ago, Heroesflorian said:

@MagischerKoenig's post sums it up very well, lol...

Independent of fg's (questionable) motivation to pursue cases of multi-accounting and account-sharing in general (i.e. particularly large-scale and severe cases left aside), they can ban ppl according to their ToS but they also can NOT ban people due to missing evidence.

Without sending undercover agents to all RR2 players' homes, they simply do not know who exactly plays any given single account, thus making it impossible to judge whether two particular accounts are played by the same person. Similarly, deciding whether 1 person plays 1 account from several different devices and/or locations, or multiple persons share the same account, is not always possibly, although in some cases easier to derive.

In cases where there is "evidence" such as people admitting having several accounts on the forums, fg would have to proof that this statement was legitly done by the account owner. Basically, nothing prevents you from creating a forum account under false name, or trying to somehow get access to someone else's forum account, or Facebook account for that matter, so unless they have reliable, "proven to be true" data that confirms ToS violations, banning can be legally risky for FG. And even then, as mentioned by others already, banning heavily paying players might not be what they want to do, as it makes them lose out on profit, unless the severity and/or publicity of a particular case of abuse is big enough to make it worth doing...

Thus, I am not really surprised by not having whitnessed a banning of considerable portions of the upper regions of the leaderboards.

And I agree that there proabably should be some clearer definitions of what is considered abusing or exploiting multiple accounts... and possibly legalizing having multiple accounts as long as done without abuse - due to a number of reasons, including but not limited to the fact that it was "forbidden but not persecuted" for a long time, it seems to be fairly widespread, it doesn't generally do harm (if done without abusing), and doing it is understandable (given there's no way back for any single account in order to re-experience lower level gameplay, progress the game from start again with different strategy, etc etc), besides increasing both active player base and revenue for FG.

 

Regarding pro league leaderboards in particular, I can clearly see this being particularly open to being exploited by multi-account-users in that they can try several times before doing the levels with their main account, given they are willing to spend additional gems on more pro tickets for all their accounts. But then again... watching videos of others doing pro league levels is not only allowed but even promoted by FG themselves: Their own employee Flothaboss (as well as other non-FG-employee-youtubers) regularly uploads pro league footage. So... where's the line, really? Let alone the very fact that Flothaboss as employee and 'content creator' is allowed to join the regular pro league competition despite definitely having an unfair advantage over everyone else without dev access. Rumours have it that he not only can try the levels as he wants but even might be involved in creating the levels in the first place. Now I don't wanna start arguing about that too much, it's FG's decision what they allow or disallow to their employees, but just saying... banning people paying for a 2nd try on pro league on their 2nd account while having someone openly get #1 with dev access might be perceived as weird depending on one's point of view.

That is not to say Flothaboss should be banned as well or that devs generally should be disallowed from playing RR2, but what I wanna say is that it is just not that simple as saying "meh, advantage in pro league = abuse = ban", especially with videos from various players providing an advantage to those participating later as well.

Thus, repeating from above, where to draw the line? That point needs discussion, and thoughts from FG if they really want fair competition for the pro leagues, independent of possibly banning some obvious cases of exploits or issuing an official statement saying "don't have multiple accounts, it's bad" that per-se changes nothing. I mean, really, that it's forbidden according to the ToS is long-known and unchanged, and that it is "tolerated" or at least not actively persecuted is a fact that didn't change as well.

 

For some practical suggestions, there's two options coming to my mind:

1. Allow purchasing and using additional pro league tickets for redoing pro leagues. Obviously, this is pay to win no matter what. And it requires limitation or heavy spenders can just repeat all over endlessly to try and improve their score.

2. Allow a "test defense" on the pro league levels. Test defense shows the time and % of completion, is NOT deducted from the available league time, and does NOT count towards your score. I.e. you can test a level for free, with no reward, as much as you want (or just not at all), and then you can have a real, regular go at it, earning crystals and reducing the league time pool same as currently. That way you can get used to the combo (something that may be a large factor for failure currently, as you have no way at all of testing out a pro league combo unless you have dev access or multiple accs), and use your skills to come up with a proper strategy for a stage. I mean for dungeons you have retries, for ninja the levels are similar/same for subsequent events, and you can always just wait for others to upload videos, so why not just allow active engagement of the player itself in order to do their best to do well on pro league levels by practicing them. And independent of practice, you can always mess up the actual raid, or consistently fail if you just are a bad raider. Only downside, "surprises" in pro league levels will be hard to pull off, for those that bother spending lots of time and effort on testing beforehand, at least.

Surely you will now say "oh that would make it too easy" - except that nope, it would not. With brand new levels and combos for every pro league, the difficulty balancing is entirely up to FG. This suggestion will lead to more average player practice for the raids, which could generally increase scores, but also make for more excitement and closer, possibly more interesting, score tables near the top. But then again, I remember FG said island 12 is balanced to be unbeatable and they'd be super surprised if anyone ever managed to beat them. Well, a bit of practice possibility could certainly make that challenge more interesting, and at the same time, all the practice in the world won't be able to overcome the impossible (if it really is and was meant to be impossible). So I don't really see an issue there. If there still are any, make the levels slightly harder to account for additional practice, for even more pro-worthy challenge to balance it out. Rank-based rewards are not subject to the change at all, and absolute-score-based / crystal-count-based rewards can certainly be slightly rebalanced should it appear necessary to account for potentially higher average scores when having the option to practice (if relevant at all, i.e. unless already compensated by slightly harder level design as mentioned above). This would not be pay to win, this would eliminate any incentives of using several accounts just to practice pro league.

 

So long.... Is it the longest unofficial post on forum.:mellow:

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allowing multiple tries is the same as allowing multiple account...i dont agree with this at all...the same goes to allowing test defence...if you do shit then accept your shittiness and put your head down, try again next league...

I've finished 334th and come back to be 10th, also finished 101 and thiz week come back being 6th with 2 days to go...i accept my failure and enjoy my triumph...

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1 hour ago, Fii Nami said:

allowing multiple tries is the same as allowing multiple account...i dont agree with this at all...the same goes to allowing test defence...if you do shit then accept your shittiness and put your head down, try again next league...

I've finished 334th and come back to be 10th, also finished 101 and thiz week come back being 6th with 2 days to go...i accept my failure and enjoy my triumph...

Yeah, no. You will never get out of your shittiness if you are given just one chance at it with no preparation or accustomisation. So a practice mode wouldn't be such a bad idea. Or at least a chance to play the league for free with no scoring after you've completed your league run, for fun or to see how you could've done better. Because tackling difficult maps is tons of fun in itself, not just for scores.

I accept that I suck donkey butt at league (was in the 700's for my first and around 1000 for chrono cup, wtf <_<) but the league concept itself sucks too. Too infrequent (28 days for a free ticket? Go straight to hell, flare) and too expensive to be enjoyable for a "normal" player.

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Okay, but getting back to the topic of multiple accounts, thanks for your excellent posting @Heroesflorian and also thank you @mLordPk for posting it in its full beauty again to add a line to say it is very long. ;)

Due to known reasons, the "not being able to ban" situation is like it is. You now might ask the question, if it is really clever to say having multiple accounts is bad and to encourage users to report those to Flare support. I meintioned it before, but the one point which I really, really don't like about the way the situation is handled is the possibility of denounciation among players.

Some People talk a lot in RR2. In game and outside (Btw, I have heard warnings, Flare seems to screen in-game conversation for certain key-words. They might take action due to this). Anyways, people are usually straight to other players about their second accounts. Maybe not in official forums but in other ways of conversation. And there will always be dispute among players. And Hate. As this is a competitive game and for other reasons.

I think the reporting of second accounts, maybe with the help of "proof" from mentions in private conversations, Discord servers, etc. really, really is a bad thing. Especially as a german company I would strongly advise against such encouragement, which is not only bad for the game.

Go, sit together and think about it Flare! At least do one thing right once in a while!

 

Edited by MagischerKoenig

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One thing is that when Flare was first introducing the pro league, they clearly said that it was for pros players. Now some newbies complain because they tried twice and did not win?

Just like the ninjas, we should ask Flare to find a way for all to win every time???

Pro league is obviously not meant for all to win...

Now, is it fair that some people are given 2 or more tries (using a trick that is against the ToS) when other people only have one shot? Sure it doesn't sound like the most equal situation.

Is that a reason to launch this denouncing attitude against ALL SUSPECTED MULTIPLE ACCOUNTS? As @MagischerKoenig was pointing out, it makes me feel like in preschool (or worse).

When people like @RoyaleDing2 (is it related to @RoyaleDing??? Please Flare investigate lol 🤣) start reporting multiple accounts without thinking about the problem, without suggesting any solution, this is the stupid thing.

@LacunaC This is reflecting our own society: I don't do anything wrong, so I feel right to report and blame others who are walking outside the pedestrian crossing, even if they don't harm or disturb anyone.

This topic is about two topics: How to make pro league fair for all. Several ideas were brought here (Not you @RoyaleDing2 @RoyaleDing). I don't bring any solution either.

The second topic is about multiple accounts, and I will NOT repeat everything that's been said on that: Yes some people are abusing the system using multiple accounts. So What? THERE IS NO WAY FOR FLARE TO DO ANYTHING! I posted both my ING is this topic, because I don't see that i am affecting ANYONE  in the game. And above that, if you think that having multiple accounts involves a minority of players, then you are so Fxx naive! Let's talk about that in another way than #Ban them all @RoyaleDing @RoyaleDing2. Let's try to bring realistic solutions!

If Flare would ban one of my accounts I would claim that they are not used by the same person. I would prove that all ip are public places. I would tell that this jvbt writting in this forum is not related to the ING that he said. And I can guarantee that i would at least mention that to my lawyer, I am an asshole, I hate to loose.

I am very happy to bring up this discussion (again). Does it really make any sense to keep this in the ToS or Not? Cheaters will always find a way to take advantage anyway. And many multiple accounts are used for different purposes.

Please Flare, you made a great game, you have excellent developers, you have brilliant ideas. I hated you for some features you put into the game, like many others. But still I am here. And it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO FIND A WAY! Remove this from your ToS because you can't do anything.

And make people feel that when they loose Pro League this is because they suck, and not because a guy is running two players.

@Heroesflorian this was a long one too 😅

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I am ranked around 200, so I have many top players around me, and honnestly I don't care at all about acount sharing or multiple accounts, it is not a problem for me if other people do that.

The only problem for me is when people use cheats (like unlimited gems, or uber stong units or spells), that makes things really unfair (see Diamond leagues records in the past).

About pro-league, I totall ysupport the diea of being able to test the levels before or even after trying them. the pro-league is a very good idea to make us play new combos, so it would be fun to be able to practice them more on maps that have eben designed for tem, and it would also remove the advantage of multiple accounts players (which is not that big in the end, as both accounts usually do similar scores, except if here was a big failure on one account).

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54 minutes ago, Bacchuse said:

I am ranked around 200, so I have many top players around me, and honnestly I don't care at all about acount sharing or multiple accounts, it is not a problem for me if other people do that.

The only problem for me is when people use cheats (like unlimited gems, or uber stong units or spells), that makes things really unfair (see Diamond leagues records in the past)

I also have unlimited gems, this is the biggest cheat I ever used, and this affects the game very much...

There is a tutorial for that: to make it simple, just link your PayPal to the store and push on the big gems package 🤣

 

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Why can't we legalize multiple account? What will be its bad consequences...?

I'm restricting only to multiple account and account sharing is nothing to do with it and I personally feel account sharing is wrong and it must be treated as unfair means.

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Account sharing is even more complicated to spot and prove. How do you do that? I mean how do you tell FOR SURE that they do that, and take the decision to close a account with thousands of euros of invest?

I understand that Flare is walking on eggs with that problem.

That's why good or bad isn't anything to discuss because shared / multiple accounts will ALWAYS exist in rr2.

Only flare can find a way to limit the possibility to exploit a shared account

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22 minutes ago, mLordPk said:

Why can't we legalize multiple account? What will be its bad consequences...?

No bad consequences, nothing will change, only @RoyaleDing2 @RoyaleDing will spend less time sending screenshots and playing Sherlock Holms trying to link some names, she will have more time to play and grow up by herself, and Flare will waste less time pretending to care about her screenshots. 😗

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