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Zillah

Fix the base defense algorithm

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A ridiculous number of bases are now choosing to use only a handful of towers in their layout to game the algorithm Flare is using. The most common variant is a total of 2 towers in the layout, both poison towers at the gate. So if a raider takes down a gate and 20 of 21 towers the raider gets a small penalty. But if a raider takes down the gate and misses 1 tower on a two tower base, a huge penalty. In both cases the raider leaves one tower.  So do we tell new players not to waste gold and time upgrading and unlocking towers, but to just build, max and perk two poison towers and stick em at the gate?

The Ninja event is already semi-ruined by being mostly about not taking down the gate before taking down the gate towers. I hear top 5 alliance war battles are largely about not missing gate towers. Should the name of the game be changed to Gate Tower Revolt? Holy crap!

Give players more incentive to use more than two towers! In fact the entire reward system and incentives to have a deadly base could use serious tweaking.

/Rant off/

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12 minutes ago, Cromka1 said:

Absolutly agree! I cant say its hard now, but yes its f*ng boring! In wars its even hell, last war as example

 

also this Poison tower is not hard, hard is basilisk))

also its unreal fight scroll free if you want 100% in war. Its not honest!

Agree, it's not that the gate towers are hard, it's more that it is a boring ass strategy. The most effective RR2 strategy is stinking gate towers? And two towers can be as effective as 21, seriously? This is what constitutes good strategy?

As a player who loves coming across someone's novel and challenging base, it's a shame if RR2 doesn't take steps to prevent itself being so dumbed down.

Edited by Zillah

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I would suggest the following. Give raiders a setting to determine when raid ends. Either when the gate is destroyed (default) like now or as soon as everything on castle gate area is destroyed.  This option would already help us to make sure that players not invest in just two towers and hope that one tower doesn't fall, resulting in punishment of the raider.

With that extra option, a lot of players will definitely pick the option to destroy everything at the castle gate area. Most players won't care to risk running out of time due to not knocking down a tower and have a loss as result. 

And as an extra, towers plus obstacles not placed in defense, should be counted as destroyed after destroying just one defensive structure. 

Players should invest in defense, that some raiders are able to break down every defense is a fact, but not many are able to do it with skull gear. And it's annoying that players even need to scroll to get 100%, while plenty of time is left and the only reason is that towers are placed near the gate. 

I don't like it when I have plenty of time left, that the raid stops as soon as the gate is down, while the only reason it's not a 100% score is due to a well forged maxed tower near the gate. When that tower was placed elsewhere, it would have been destroyed for sure.

Even with full towers in defense, we don't know which towers are near the gate and with the new basilisk towers sonic blast even doesn't guarantee any longer a 100% victory.

That such an option isn't valid for ninja events, fine with me, but during war season an option to destroy all towers at castle gate area should be available. You could also prohibit towers at the castle gate area, it's also an easy solution, but I like the option more.

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And while we are at it, fix that bug with jester boxes not triggering while running through.
I had it several times last war, that i didn't get 100% due to this nonsense. Or just don't count
non-triggered jester boxes as remaining structures. Very simple, isn't it!

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The easiest of all solutions would be to have the gate blow the $@%& up when it's destroyed, taking along all defenses in gate square. That would make placing towers there pretty much pointless (and would be the opposite of what we have now - instead of putting off destroying the gate for as long as possible everyone would rush to destroy the gate quick). It's a terrible idea but at least a spectacular one. :P

A better solution would be a more direct way to give targets to units, because 99% of the time it's their fault there are towers left when gate falls. If nothing else, have the units stop firing while the king fights towers himself (Kaiser aside, the dumb critter).

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The path towers are just for show, the only ones that matter are by the gate.

The answer is fairly simple, judge progress on path reached and gate destroyed, ignore the towers/traps completely for the end score (towers could be included for progress within a path, but crown 1 should be tile 9, and towers destroyed only add % up to that tile). Towers should be there to kill the king, not hidden away so the king might not see them, a deactivated lightning tower should be worth nothing.

We already ignore all units and the beast (I've had battles with the beast at my tent and me at the gate rushing to destroy the gate first).

Edited by neilr81

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6 hours ago, Zillah said:

A ridiculous number of bases are now choosing to use only a handful of towers in their layout to game the algorithm Flare is using. The most common variant is a total of 2 towers in the layout, both poison towers at the gate. So if a raider takes down a gate and 20 of 21 towers the raider gets a small penalty. But if a raider takes down the gate and misses 1 tower on a two tower base, a huge penalty. In both cases the raider leaves one tower.  So do we tell new players not to waste gold and time upgrading and unlocking towers, but to just build, max and perk two poison towers and stick em at the gate?

The Ninja event is already semi-ruined by being mostly about not taking down the gate before taking down the gate towers. I hear top 5 alliance war battles are largely about not missing gate towers. Should the name of the game be changed to Gate Tower Revolt? Holy crap!

Give players more incentive to use more than two towers! In fact the entire reward system and incentives to have a deadly base could use serious tweaking.

/Rant off/

Yes! I does seem stupid that the % of defenses taken down affects the result so heavily. I mean if I'm raiding a castle, and the castle gate falls, then technically all those towers fall... (i.e. war over, I win!) Maybe an effect of the castle gate falling, is the 2 adjacent towers should be knocked down as well... because my troops are standing RIGHT THERE, so why wouldn't they do that???

OR: THE SIMPLEST SOLUTION: WHEN THE GATE FALLS, THE TIMER SHOULD NOT STOP IF YOU HAVEN"T GOT 100%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

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4 hours ago, JiggleFizziks said:

The easiest of all solutions would be to have the gate blow the $@%& up when it's destroyed, taking along all defenses in gate square. That would make placing towers there pretty much pointless (and would be the opposite of what we have now - instead of putting off destroying the gate for as long as possible everyone would rush to destroy the gate quick). It's a terrible idea but at least a spectacular one. :P

A better solution would be a more direct way to give targets to units, because 99% of the time it's their fault there are towers left when gate falls. If nothing else, have the units stop firing while the king fights towers himself (Kaiser aside, the dumb critter).

Yes, much of succeeding as a RR2 raider is managing poor unit AI. Some units are prone to run past a tower, others are prone to stupidly get stuck at choke points or sharp turns or stuck in place if in a large group. Giving players a chance to choose among a couple of preprogrammed instruction sets for each unit would add a sorely needed additional level of strategy to the game.

 For example, a choice for Ogres to move faster at the expense of less damage, or pyros to have a greater range, but slower aatack speed. Basically let each troop be customized a little, independent of pearl perks. This is already done to some extent with pearl perks, both by the perks Flare chooses to be possible for each unit, and by how a player chooses which perks to max first. But any strategic element vanishes as soon as everything is max perked. A better option would be mutually exclusive perk paths, forcing a player to choose.

But beyond pearl perks, why not have 3 options for each unit/tower which a player can choose amongst, each of which involves trade-offs and allows for more strategic play.

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Want to make towers and barriers all important again? Easy, lock the ability to damage the castle gate until every towers and every barriers on the map are destroyed. Example, if the king reaches the castle gate with his army and starts attacking it with fury and nothing happens, he would know that he has missed out something and so the king has to retrace his steps to locate that tower or barrier that he missed. Once the last tower and the last barrier is down, castle gate is open for attack the usual way. Programming-wise, this is very easy to implement - the program just ignores any damage to castle gate until all towers and barriers on the map are destroyed.

Even better if there is a headcount of Towers and Barriers remaining on the screen for us to see. Example: "Tower: 0/21 destroyed" (at beginning) to "Tower: 21/21 destroyed" (at the end).

If the above is implemented, every single tower and every single barrier on the map counts. Strategy will be aplenty to preserve these towers and barriers. Now we can have kill the king setup or delay the twr/barrier from being destroyed setup. Plus every player will be motivated to upgrade and perk up every single towers and barriers helping Flare to burn away gold, gems and pearls from the players. And these semi-open bases with a tower each at opposite side of the castle gate will be a thing of the past. Over to you Flare.

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32 minutes ago, GemsISKing said:

Want to make towers and barriers all important again? Easy, lock the ability to damage the castle gate until every towers and every barriers on the map are destroyed. Example, if the king reaches the castle gate with his army and starts attacking it with fury and nothing happens, he would know that he has missed out something and so the king has to retrace his steps to locate that tower or barrier that he missed. Once the last tower and the last barrier is down, castle gate is open for attack the usual way. Programming-wise, this is very easy to implement - the program just ignores any damage to castle gate until all towers and barriers on the map are destroyed.

Even better if there is a headcount of Towers and Barriers remaining on the screen for us to see. Example: "Tower: 0/21 destroyed" (at beginning) to "Tower: 21/21 destroyed" (at the end).

If the above is implemented, every single tower and every single barrier on the map counts. Strategy will be aplenty to preserve these towers and barriers. Now we can have kill the king setup or delay the twr/barrier from being destroyed setup. Plus every player will be motivated to upgrade and perk up every single towers and barriers helping Flare to burn away gold, gems and pearls from the players. And these semi-open bases with a tower each at opposite side of the castle gate will be a thing of the past. Over to you Flare.

That is a good idea. For months people have been pleading for an indicator for towers, be it a mini map (counterarguements were that there isn't enough screen space on a phone for that but that's what the pause menu is for) or blips on the progress bar, yours is another of those suggestions.

Additionally, "making your way to the gate" by passing through defenses seems quite logical. It's not like you go around defending forces and slip through castle walls like a bloody ninja (technically doable in real life but not in the game, m8) so it stands to reason that you must defeat everything beforehand. Of course, it can be argued that it is sometimes wiser to ignore a well armed fortress and go directly beyond enemy lines but this is not that kind of strategy game, is it. Having the gate be impervious to damage until all defenses are defeated while it can inflict damage to attackers, or at least having to destroy key structures to disable the doom gate boost (or something in the sense) would add some tactics to raids.

The only time 99% victories are welcome are during festivals, to have that one or two additional raids in your daily pool. In every single other time everyone hates it and something should be done about it.

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I have a simple solution to this problem.

Let's do some simple maths.

The info I have till now is yr gate distruction accounts 25% gold of raid ,25% for reaching gate and 50% for destroying towers.

So till now this 50% is being exploited by using only two towers in path which accounts 25% for each towers.

(If I am wrong on this,I am just giving example to explain)

This can simply be fixed by doing this

Assume u have castel gate level which gives u 10 towers.

Divide this 50% in all 10 towers equally, no matter how many towers u have on path.

No consider player puts two towers in path at gate which would account 50%/10=5% each tower ....so player would loose only 10% gold if he is not able to destroy the two towers at gate.

So the that remains 40% would be given to player as soon as he reaches gate.

If he uses no tower 75% would be granted as soon he reaches gate.

This way the part of a tower would remain equal each time in gold and would also no affect wars.

Though trophies the player would need to be slightly adjusted to incorporate this thing.

Edited by mukss

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I don't think people care about the gold reward being a few % less, it's that the game inordinately rewards someone for getting 100% vs 99% or lower, both in ninja and war, which are the two modes that results really matter.  Everything else, the results disappear into thin air, a bit more gold or less, if I have gold on my base, it just means it gets stolen by 2 people instead of 1.

This means people are designing bases to stop players getting 100% raid, rather than which can actually defeat the enemy, which is stupid (but Flare started the stupidness via the ninja, and skull perking).

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8 hours ago, neilr81 said:

I don't think people care about the gold reward being a few % less, it's that the game inordinately rewards someone for getting 100% vs 99% or lower, both in ninja and war, which are the two modes that results really matter.  Everything else, the results disappear into thin air, a bit more gold or less, if I have gold on my base, it just means it gets stolen by 2 people instead of 1.

This means people are designing bases to stop players getting 100% raid, rather than which can actually defeat the enemy, which is stupid (but Flare started the stupidness via the ninja, and skull perking).

And now the chickens are coming home to roost from Flare's gate tower laziness. The number of bases in the top 100 alliances that use only a handful of towers is an epidemic. This makes a mockery out of the game, that so many top players think 2 or a handful of towers are as effective as 21. How did Flare let it get to this point?

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On 3.11.2017 at 7:09 AM, Zillah said:

A ridiculous number of bases are now choosing to use only a handful of towers in their layout to game the algorithm Flare is using. The most common variant is a total of 2 towers in the layout, both poison towers at the gate. So if a raider takes down a gate and 20 of 21 towers the raider gets a small penalty. But if a raider takes down the gate and misses 1 tower on a two tower base, a huge penalty. In both cases the raider leaves one tower.  So do we tell new players not to waste gold and time upgrading and unlocking towers, but to just build, max and perk two poison towers and stick em at the gate?

The Ninja event is already semi-ruined by being mostly about not taking down the gate before taking down the gate towers. I hear top 5 alliance war battles are largely about not missing gate towers. Should the name of the game be changed to Gate Tower Revolt? Holy crap!

Give players more incentive to use more than two towers! In fact the entire reward system and incentives to have a deadly base could use serious tweaking.

/Rant off/

Hello everyone,

Thank you for bringing this to our intention. We understand your concerns and we are currently working on a solution to prevent the use of such tactics and keep battles fair, interesting and fun.

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@Nikko A very simple solution to this is to stop the timer only when all structures on the castle gate area are destroyed. Just let the timer continue until everything on castle gate area is either destroyed, or we run out of time. Then it can be a strategy to place towers there. Now only reason is to hope that we don't manage to destroy those towers, while the goal of a raid should be to break the gate and obstacles, defensive troops plus towers should try to prevent that to happen.

Defensive structures plus waves should prevent raiders from breaking the gate, towers near the gate now more and more are abused to prevent 100% scores and some hope that raiders don't knock down those towers near the gate to lower scores down to 67%. It's absurd that some even only focus on two towers near the gate that can't be knocked down easily (read maxed plus heavily forged to prevent a spell to destroy it in one turn), without even investing in the remaining 19 towers plus 16 obstacles.

I hope the solution you are working on will be a good one. 

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Lets see what they come up with.

Probably do not want a situation where players can run past skip as many towers as they can and just hit the gate - it might make some towers obsolete / much less useful.

Not really convinced letting the timer keep going after gate is destroyed is the best idea either, might be confusing for new players / players that don't read forum why the battle hasn't finished when the gate is destroyed - and there is a tower way back at the start of the map still standing.

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2 minutes ago, bensonjutton said:

Easiest solution to this is to count every tower/obstacle that is not placed as being destroyed already

Nope, a strategy to use jester boxes and frost spikes only is also an option and your suggestion would hurt this. It would be easy to just run forward to the gate, ignoring all towers and just knock down the gate. Insta troops like mummy or your insta troops are enough to do so. It should be an objective to destroy every defensive structure before the gate can be destroyed. 

That towers near the gate count as destroyed when the gate goes down is fine with me and is up to flare, players should not have placed them there in the first place. But flare allowed it, so players actually do nothing wrong.

The suggestion that the gate can't be damaged before all defensive structures are down is a good one (maybe just towers near the gate must be destroyed is already a good alternative). When you forget to destroy a defensive structure, it can be time consuming, so we should see those structures on the path in some way to locate them in time. 

So when hero moved on and forgot to take out towers, we should at least get feedback that something is still standing and where (some mark on the progress bar). 

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1 hour ago, Nikko said:

Hello everyone,

 

 

Thank you for bringing this to our intention. We understand your concerns and we are currently working on a solution to prevent the use of such tactics and keep battles fair, interesting and fun.

 

 

Thanks for answer @Nikko  I hope Flare will change this stupid and not encouraging to develop situation.

Simple flare should ban placing towers in castle courtyard..only in ninja event this is making some sense. thanks.

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On 11/3/2017 at 2:09 PM, Zillah said:

A ridiculous number of bases are now choosing to use only a handful of towers in their layout to game the algorithm Flare is using. The most common variant is a total of 2 towers in the layout, both poison towers at the gate. So if a raider takes down a gate and 20 of 21 towers the raider gets a small penalty. But if a raider takes down the gate and misses 1 tower on a two tower base, a huge penalty. In both cases the raider leaves one tower.  So do we tell new players not to waste gold and time upgrading and unlocking towers, but to just build, max and perk two poison towers and stick em at the gate?

The Ninja event is already semi-ruined by being mostly about not taking down the gate before taking down the gate towers. I hear top 5 alliance war battles are largely about not missing gate towers. Should the name of the game be changed to Gate Tower Revolt? Holy crap!

Give players more incentive to use more than two towers! In fact the entire reward system and incentives to have a deadly base could use serious tweaking.

/Rant off/

Thank you for making this thread. It is nice to know this has caught Flare's attention.

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And Flare should think about the reasons of this behavior.

One reason is:

Alliances want to reach LVL 80. But they don´t want to spend thousands of $ or € like Vanguard or Todes. So they save their Alliance Gold -> No defence boosts.

In this situation it´s better to place only some towers near the gate!

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43 minutes ago, CATO said:

And Flare should think about the reasons of this behavior.

One reason is:

Alliances want to reach LVL 80. But they don´t want to spend thousands of $ or € like Vanguard or Todes. So they save their Alliance Gold -> No defence boosts.

In this situation it´s better to place only some towers near the gate!

It's indeed a correct observation.

For some players it's undoable to max 21 towers and 16 obstacles, plus forge them all like crazy. And... for special season boosts to have some towers and obstacles of any kind in reserve (plus also forged like crazy). Take last release, adding one extra level to everything. For upgrading towers we need workers and when we want to do it fast a lot of them (8+, the more the better). Then first dilemma, everyone started to upgrade, so there was almost no gold to get all those lazy workers back to work. 

A lot of players start to do their ultimate best to max everything again including defense, while some literally use the exploit and just upgrade those two towers ( a lousy 11M per snake tower! They even don't need max their throne room and gate. Throne room they will do, since their spells and troops become stronger) and forge those to the extreme while ignoring the rest. They literally do just 5% of the needed defensive upgrades for having a strong defense and it's absurd that players need to scroll to knock down one of the two towers.

Those players get rewarded (with gems due to scrolling), while they should be punished, since their gate goes down every time. That players scroll, fine. But it should be against bases of players who did their homework and invested in 100% of their defensive structures, not against players being lazy and just putting two towers around the gate. 

Also... they even don't need to invest in blacksmith. When I just need to focus on 2 snake towers once a week, I need 2*400 pearls max = 800 pearls per week. That's easy by even unlocking 3-4 slots. However... When I need to forge 21 towers plus 16 obstacles it's already going to cost 15k pearls per week for just forging defensive structures then it's a different story, all blacksmith slots need to be unlocked and more than 2k pearls per day need to be created to forge all towers minimal ones a week (not completely, ninja event provides also pearls every 14 days). And items, spells and troops also need to be forged! So it's quite hard to do this simultaneously. 

Summarizing... it's a full time job to get all towers maxed plus forged to the extreme, while just focusing on two towers instead is a piece of cake. Even outside the season some don't even invest any longer in upgrading towers, that's the games intention totally upside down. That there are some very skilled raiders who are able to beat any defense, even with skull gear is a fact. But majority of us really isn't able to do so. And that's what it's all about, the base idea behind this game was preventing that a raider can destroy the gate in time, that was the main objective.

When the players who now just focus on two towers are forced to place 21 towers and 16 obstacles on their base, I would not be surprised that a lot of them have very low level unforged towers plus obstacles and even have a lot of waves below 40 morale. A solution/fix would literally force them to redo their homework, just like anybody else who doesn't use this strategy. And I think most of them in that case have such an easy base, that they are forced to search another team, since they literally will bleed skulls, and make teams lose war seasons. 

A lot of us including me invest a lot of time and energy with limited resources (workers and time) and try to max everything as fast as possible within our powers. So should everyone else invest time and energy in upgrading their defense. The lazy ones just can focus on two towers and use the other resources (pearls) to improve offense by forging items, spells and troops. 

Now defenders tend to not care about it, as long as offenders are punished for not being able to knock all towers near the gate down. Those players even not invest in defensive troops and waves. Why would they? 

So whatever the solution is, it should focus on the main objective of a defender. And that's preventing destroying the gate by a good designed base, with towers and structures well placed to support troops, beast and defensive ninjas/zombies and giving raiders a hard time. That's also the reason why I hammered a while ago on the fact that when a raider fails in breaking the gate, that he should not be rewarded with trophies. And when a offender breaks the gate, he should not be punished and lose trophies, because a defender just placed some towers near the gate that don't go down by a max spell that is forged quite often and that the offender needs several perks to destroy it in one shot. 

So from point of view of alliances @CATO hits the jackpot, by saving gold for defensive boosts (barricades, boosted bomb towers, frost traps, basilisk, tempest tower) and offensive boosts (let's only activate knights, ogre and wolf, so cannons, monks and so on aren't required) to just being able to upgrade with the saved gold is one of the reasons why a lot of players start to use such a defense. 

I hope that a solution for this is coming soon. 

Edited by Dena4

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Putting toners at the gate is part of the game. With good strategy you can get them down without damaging the gate.

My solution of counting towers/obstacles/spikes that are not placed as already destroyed would take out the lame bases with only two towers at the gate, cause then you score already 95% even when leaving those towers in place. Simpel solution to a complex problem ;-)

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