Balance Rework

So I haven’t been playing as long as some of the veterans here… but I want to thank everyone for making me feel so welcomed.  I apologize if some of these suggestions have already been brought up elsewhere - I looked but don’t see anything in the last few months.

  1. Helen’s Beauty 

I see the late game potential for Helen and I think she’ll be a pretty powerful caster - but the problem is when you unlock her and up through until late game, she is just about useless.  The problem is her power is a chance % of working - and as my luck goes when I need it the most, is when it most likely fails.

My proposed solution is her power has a counter part - if the power fails to convert an enemy - that enemy is stunned for 4 seconds.  It still gives the player some limited crowd control - and makes the power feel “worth it”.  I feel this works thematically with Helen - ie “Stunning” beauty.  Additionally it doesn’t make Helen’s Beauty more powerful or ‘overpowered’.  As its chance to convert increases - the stunning aspect decreases.

One additionall alternative is to keep HB as it is, but have also potentially affect Towers.  This is a more direct power increase, but it still comes down to its base chance of conversion - but now it can convert more things- and turning their own defenses against them sounds pretty fun!

  1. Weapon Rework

Honestly it kinda irks me that some heroes get a shield - which is a hero bonus on their sheet.  It’s somewhat of a underrated feature initially - but on close inspection it gives those shieldbearers a pretty big advantage  - a whole extra equipment slot.  The other heroes don’t feel like they get any offensive advantage over the loss of that defensive equipment slot (except for maybe Hercules). 

So what I propose is a weapons rework.  Keep the 1 handed weapons that shieldbearers wield the same.  2 Handed weapons - Prometheus / Jason / Ajax /Artemis - have their base attack damage increased by 30% - 40% and have a base of 3 perks with a potential max of 6 perks. Dual Weapons - Hercules / Odysseus / Adriane - base attack damage is reduced by 35% - 45%. Heroes get “Dual Wielder” added to their sheet and they have a second weapon slot.

I think this will help differentiate heroes more - it will allow dual wielders to feel like they are getting more of a return for their fragility and two handers will feel more heroic.  Additionally I think this gives players more room to further tweak and customize their heroes.

What level is your helen’s Beauty?

Lvl 11 - 84%  which surprisingly is still borderline unreliable.  But each step closer to 100% does feel remarkably better.

Helen’s Beauty is the only power that you can cast at the right time … in the right place … and receive absolutely nothing for it.  Just the satisfaction that you pressed a button.

Level it up. 

Oh yea… that’s what I should have done at ascension 30 … just level it up to max.

Well … at least I can level it up to max now at ascension 90 … nope … wait.  Still can’t.

I know it no longer pertains to you, but Helen’s beauty sucks for a long time - I think it’s a small & valid change to make it ‘more’ worthwhile for rising players.

It’s also a fairly powerful spell. It’s balanced by having a %chance to not work, that decreases as you level it up. There are other mechanics in the game that work the same way, so it’s not unique, although it is the only spell that works that way. 

If you feel that it’s failing too often, you can increase your chances for it to work successfully (although not the odds per cast) by increasing cooldown, just like you can increase the chances for stun or demolition to work by adding weapon speed.

my personal complaint is that it’s boring at high level. At level 17 or 18 it really does almost always work. You don’t get a lot of utility for the last few levels.

But seriously, level it up. You’ve outgrown the usefulness of level 11 Helen’s Beauty for your ascension level. All heroes lean hard on their unique spells and you need to upgrade them as you go. You don’t need to take it all the way to level 20, but 13 or 14 isn’t crazy for your ascension level.

 

No 12 is the highest right now, I’d need to level my shrine & hero hall again - but before that need to max out my towers.

Again … I think my recommendation is valid.  I agree whole heartily at higher levels it’s very powerful - however that’s a long journey to get there. This will help alleviate its weakness at low levels while not making it any stronger at high lvl.  It allows a player to use her while leveling, as opposed to just parking her.

That some would have shields while others would not is true to any ancient war craft. Not all warriors wanted or need shields. What I find odd is that Ajax has a shield even though his two handed weapon would never allow him to use it. So why does he get credited for the shield? Also, having two weapons does not necessarily give someone an advantage over someone like Prometheus that has only one sword and no shield. That said, it serves the game well to have some heroes with a shield and some without. Because it means some will be better for offensive strategy while others are better for defense. And you have to figure out who works best for which. Some units are not much good at lower levels but are very good at higher levels. and some are very good until they receive a war blessing. But once they receive it they are very good. This results in many people not upgrading units that they find to be less useful. They then struggle when pitted against people at higher levels that did focus on the upgrades of weaker and less used units during Odysseys. Three examples of this are the axemen, the Siren, and the Trebuchet that are often passed over when it comes to the upgrades available byway of the Odyssey missions/fame earned.

@Vern I agree with the part regarding heroes without a shield being at a disadvantage as I also raised this subject before.  

For me the problem isn’t so much the base with towers/barricades as for most of that you don’t need physical resistance from a shield - but when you reach the GK you will be at a disadvantage as you WILL NEED physical resistance as the GK does a lot of phys damage x3. In addition you get your own physical damage reflected back from Percy in 99.9% of top 500 players. 

The problem is the devs made the phys res perk 1/3 weaker than the any other elemental resistance when it really should be 1/3 stronger than a standard elemental resistance as they are the ones that are badly needing it .No shield hero needs a phys res perk. You refine a shield for a max phys res easily. 

Either change the strengths of the perk or preferably lower the GK damage to x2 value to the hero rather than the existing x3. As it is currently ***** taking on top GK’s in war without a shield hero. You die very quickly even with a good phys res perk.  

I think this is a bit of an exaggeration. I bring two non shield-bearers to war, neither with any physical resist, one with no DR either. I kill the gk 99% of the time.

Yes in war you can select the ‘easier’ bases to suit your hero, but you only have to see some of the higher trophy guys, for example try a few of the better ones in the top alliances with no phys res and you won’t last 2 seconds.  Right now you get by as most haven’t really bothered that much to forge the GK’s and yet many you cant stand toe as the DR just kills you. Even with troops hitting the DR can get you there too.   Taking 84% of the heroes stats is way too high.

 

I start from the top and work down?

Whats the truth, 99.9% of top 500 players have killer GKs, or most players haven’t bothered to forge their gk? It can’t be both. 

The 99.9% was referring to how many of the top 500 use Percy (and mirror shield has excessive DR) as a GK and it’s probably not far from reality. Some have killer GK’s, some have near or actually immortal GK’s unless you use gems.

Seems strange seeing as it’s a game based on attacking (yes it’s a tower defence game) actually favours the defence. 

To sum up what several of us were speaking about in our LINE group, basically you can’t solo a well built GK with any hero (I’m talking end game GK, better than we have probably seen), you need quite a lot of troops, but to get there the only way is high CD and pheme/ascelpius to keep them alive as the towers now kill most troops relatively easily. So really everything needs a CD refine and some stun gear.  

Going back to the original topic non shield heroes not only don’t have the phys res perk and it will be too low when added, they also have one less slot to refine Cd or anything else on to. 

What the % of people using Caddy/Athena in TL wars, almost everyone has either and most in our alliance use both and Percy added in a safe 95% clearance. Yeah I used Prometeus for a few seasons, and can still do the mid to weaker bases of TL alliances but he doesn’t stand a chance in a few months. 

Can’t wait for this forum to end…

why?

You nailed it… But you have to consider that the game was designed firstly without forging, without super forging, and without refining forging, these things came out later. So the initial idea with non-shield heroes (except Artemis), was that they have some advantages over the rest of the heroes, to balance that out… I can see Hercules and Jason for sure, maybe Ariadne (although I don’t use her), but not for Prometheus, can’t say about Odysseus and naturally not with Artemis. That’s a huge disappointment, because she came after the forging era.

But still, except Hercules, the other guys are at a disadvantage to begin with. I know some people have mastered them, even Prom/Ody, but the fact we need to consider is the % of their usage. Either for raids, or plainly number of users taking them to war, even the max Odyssey usage when they appear can be an indication. After refinings, they have been again hugely left behind, it’s imho objectively so. I am not saying the devs should improve them, maybe that’s how it has to be, but the fact is that most of the heroes should be “equal”, or used at a similar rate, give or take some %… the same goes for Perseus as GK… It’s not necessarily a bad thing, but except Odysseys, they serve a purpose of resource hoarders.

I think overall, if you forge/refine all the heroes, you should be able to bring them at around the same level of features, with the same cost/time. So start with 100 mil cash, and 30 mil wisdom, build a hero with 20k damage, 500k health, resistances as so, stun/petrify/CD, regen/demo/fb… anything. Set a goal, and work for it. If you can do that with the same resources, then they are considered equal. If I am left with half the resources for Perseus/Athena, and I need twice or more for Artemis, then it’s no way equal.

Edit. Sh******t… I accidentally used Odysseus just now, for 750 ambrosia… because i wanted to check something while writing here…

Odysseus is one of my best heroes. I can AP with him on most bases, although he’s not as efficient as Cadmus or Ariadne in AP. He has a very strong unique power and very good leadership. With enough CD he’s a top level hero. You should give him another shot!

I get that probably all heroes can be great for 99% of the bases here, and for a lot of the GK’s too, but the likes of Caddy/Helen/Percy pretty much come ready to use at a half decent lvl without any additional refinement - how many refinements/cost has your Odyseus? I’m guessing at least 2 which will need replacing before you hit max lvl. As for Prometeus I used him for many seasons but he now needs too much refining (as towers do too much damage) also to be a Herc standard as his uniques are useless unless refined (and maybe still not great). I think Ariadne can be ok once her power is max’d to get units to the GK for final showdown.  Artemis from my understanding now needs a lot of refining to get the protection as she has no shield obviously.

All my heroes are refined. It’s an integral part of the game. Oddy is a great gk killer and all-around good hero. If you spent some time forging him a brand new set of gear, like you have for your war heroes, etc…, you’d be very successful with him. I think many people get a negative impression of certain heroes, and consequently they use them less often and forge for them less often (and don’t level up unique powers). So when the do have to use them, like in the odyssey, they’re wearing outdated gear and really struggle, which reemphasizes that “that hero sucks”.

EDIT: And I think Ariadne is one of those heroes who definitely doesn’t need to have her power maxed out. All you get is shorter CD on it and a longer portal. The shorter CD (which is already plenty short by the time you get it to a decent level) can be compensated for with CD perks, and the longer portal isn’t necessarily an advantage, and can be seen as a disadvantage.

Damn it … stop making me agree with you!! ?

Yea …Odysseus is my favs. 

But the argument comes back around - if ~All~ heros require refining (which I agree …they do), shieldbearers have a major Refining advantage in they get a whole extra item slot to load perks up with.  Even if you don’t want the extra defense - load it up with FB - CD - Potency - Dem - AS - Attack …whatever!

So I’m not really suggesting re-balance the heroes themselves - but rather, rebalance their items vs that extra slot. 

Two Handers deal base damage is increase 40% and they can hold more perks (base 3 - max 6, so it is effectively 2 items in 1).

Dual wielders get a second weapon slot - but their weapon damage is halved. (Seriously - Odys needs 2 caster swords).