Forging non uniques

refining bronze item with bronze item:
if i use a chest plate (base life + armor perk) to refine a shield (base armor + fire perk)
=> i get a shield with base armor + fire perk + armor perk (!!!). Indeed i now noticed that armor can be displayed with a circle (base armor) or with a shield shape (armor perk)
1/ Is it the same with cmd/life … ? They are displayed with a circle, but i would appreciate confirmation that it is impossible to get a head item with for example base cmd+CD perk + cmd perk (cmd perk will not be added, instead a random perk will be picked?)

2/ what is difference between refining a silver item with bronze item or with a silver item:
both leads to gold item ? any gain in stats to use a silver instead of bronze for refining (but the drawback is that it is harder to get desired perks ?)

I have created an excel file for forging/superforging bronze items at my current level (values seems to get lower and lower when item ascension level is higher).
3/ Thoose values are still compatible with forging silver items or should i create same file for forging/superforging silver items ??
4/ Anyone knows more about the formula of forging values when you increase in ascension level (i think no one has ever done any reverse engineering about that, so easier question is: is it the same before and after level 131) ?

i still have not done calculations for refines as atm as i just pick good greens (sometimes also blue,…) or reare/cursed perks and forge them properly. but there was a time when some players invested some effort into it (and still do).
for greens in bronce there is roughly value x 6.186 (or something) if you start from 1-star and start forging always max up to titan 5-star - just for an estimation where you will end.
blue has lower factor, purple also since the boosts from color-step to color step become smaller.

but thats only bronce forge 1o1. i did not extensivly looked into refine calculation simply bc i do not have so many items as in bronce. but i also dont care. i started forging and stopped calculating :laughing:

but there is lots of “literature” and discussions here (attention: some links may be old! but i liked some references collected. right here. why not.) and i bet still some wow’s to find out.

Version 4.2.0 - May the Forge be with you
Upcoming Version 4.2.0 - The Forge
Forging items.
Forge bugs
Perk improvement is capped during forging
Practical Example of Superforging and Refinements
Silver 5* titan objects become useless
some insights for item and hero stats
tool for analysing hero item (forge step)

and many more (if someone fells like i should cancel links or add some other too, i can edit them here)

and not to forget: https://forums.flaregames.com/tags/qa-developer-sessions

i hope i am not unfriendly right now, i have not even read your questions properly >_< and started just looking for links … i hope i find some time later or someone else. in the best case - you will find some answers

I dont get exactly all your questions, the basic problem is because we use diffetent terms. Dont take it personally, I have the same issue with EVERYONE.

Here are a few answers

The forging “value” or % of increase is almost the same for bronze/silver/gold. So you can use the same calculator/excel. In fact you can do a chain of calculations, to get from green 1* bronze to titan 5* Gold

I am not sure what you mean with reverse engineering, but increasing ascension gives the same exact forging value or % increase, and each level has a single normal forge (1* dismantle) difference which depends on perk/main (the percentage).

Silver only leads to gold. You can refine a silver with bronze/silver/gold and it will add one more perk, so it gets to gold.

For your first question, I will try to break down the basics, just ignore what you know, maybe I’ll get the part you are asking.

Health is heart, and found on vests/boots. Rarely as cursed items on bracelets and capes.
You can transfer bealth, if its a cursed perk. You cant transfer it from vest/boots

Armor is physical resistance. Can be found on a shield and it cant be transferred. However you can find it as a resistance, on vest and boots. As cursed perk, on capes or rings. These can be transfered anywhere, even on a shield but it is completely useless to do so, in the long run.

at level 90-100 (did not noticed exactly), i use to get +1.75% for cmd for each forging (green 1* to green 2* etc… and also for changing color)
now at level 121, i get +1.3% for each forging.
Most of values are lower now (damage is +2.3% while it used to be +3.33% at level 90-100)
only the 5% for common perks (stun/petrify/CD etc…) are the same

=> i was wondering if there is a formula for the updated values over ascension progression.

Thx nan, i have read some topics, but not all of them. Will do this week end :slight_smile:

I know that having a shield with base armor + fire perk and armor perk is stupid.
But i was willing to use a vest (base life + armor perk), upgraded in gold with demo+DR and transfer this on ajax unique shield for example. I though i will be 100% sure to get demo and DR transfered, but now i think i might get the armor perk transferred and get ajax unique shield with a base armor and a armor perk (which would not be great ^^)
So i was willing to know if i can get the same issue with cmd (what happen if i creates a gold vest base life + cmd perk + DR perk + demo perk and i forge heracules unique helmet)

Weapons are 2,3% - it wouldn’t surprise me if on lower levels there are deviations. I did try to calculate my forging weapons on mini account, and there are small differences. It could be rounding issue… certainly when your damage is 100 you get to 102 and thats 2% because the 0,3 gets lost. When the values are higher you dont bother with 1-2 points on 4000 outcome

I have seen totally different calculations with shield though. And sometimes the forge is higher, but we need a lot of research to do so. If you gather enough data let me know.

It is however constant after a certain ascension level. I just dont want to misslead most people. Lower levels do not usually matter, as everyone is still levelling up.

i have 7 data point only for damage, all between 1.0327 and 1.035
so i m pretty sure it used to be 3.3% when i was about level 90
Same for cmd
and i recently noticed that for 2 items at lvl 121 (one very high perk value for my level, and other pretty low for my level, so probably a level 115-120 item) for loh blue4* to purple 1*, one value was 17.6% and the other one 16.66% => increase seems lower for higher level.

@Archimides : What is the % for loh blue4* to purple 1* for “standard” forging (i mean not super forging) at your level ?

I did a test on my 106 account, its close to that, so yeah you have a point. I am guessing it stabilizes after the 115 level? Probably.

Thats a nice question my friend. The answer is hugely complicated. Loh % of color increase gets lower as Loh gets higher. I have posted a graph about it a few months ago, and the algorithm / formula is a really complicated one. But I think I’ve finally cracked it.

I am wondering if you, @NaN and @Marinien would want to exploit that with new data perhaps?

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yeah, so far i can t understand it, as i only have very limited data (and as i intend to freeze level, i will probably never have more data ^^). But if you share some, i might understand something ^^

hi. archimides answerd your questions, others can be found with the links, but may i respond to question 1

it was a long discussion there in the link „forge bugs“ as the initial description of a preview of the forge was different or missleading to what was observed. cladly it was confirmed here (https://forums.flaregames.com/t/forge-bugs/16464/30) and a hint was added in the original description.
so the answer to your question is yes, it is possible but as archmides explained you have differ between base and rare/cursed perk. due to this change from the original description the transfer of perks from rings to an item with a base is only possible with some restrictions. and as you found out you can only use shields to push shields in a way you asked.

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this will not get you the result you want. rethink about it or maybe you named the wrong perks with the used abrivations.

i cannot answer this bc it is not seen by the items at which levels they dropped. i did not made extra notices to screenshots about that, i know i should have but i was lazy.
nevertheless i analysed a lot of screens that i made i guess about 40000. if you draw the progress (or the new values) over the old values you dont need the level and you get as information that the progress is about the same for a lot of items regardless of lvl. maybe exept color step boost.
progress of base values on the otherhand are free of a color step boost and you can see the the progress is an exponential function (until maybe you reach a value where soft caps interact) as the incremental steps are a constant factor to the actual. and so it is also for the incremental steps within the same color range.
e.g. x_{k+1}=1.065*x_k for max forge during a color (or 1.05 for min forge. base values increase is lower, but i dont have the number in my head right now. but you find them easily on your own. 1 screen is enough)

Sorry for the delayed answer. You know that I am always hungry for complicated formulas, my friend :wink:.

Edit: BTW I think that damage perk behaves more or less the same way as LoH.

sorry too - yes, bring it on :smiley:

That damage seems constant on higher levels throughout the scale from green to titan. But I will check it out now that we established lower levels have higher %

Loh works the other way btw… its less % as you grow the value.

I found my excel, but its quite complicated to show the formulas from my ipad. I have to get to work, so i can work better with copy paste and explanations of what is what…

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Actually that what I meant with damage, some behavior.

Too bad that I was too lazy to take screenshots of all steps up to Titan. But what I extrapolated from with green to purple, for purple to titan was higher than what I got in the end, so I guessed that it’s the same like LoH.

You know I love to debate, especially when there is data. Much more on forum, even if only few will read/care/understand, because it stays and spreads.

I feel I have an understanding on how the mechanics work. Its part of my job too, so it comes easy and as far as OR is concerned, I will speak if I know something, I will speculate if I dont. So here goes:

I cant fully remember how loh was in the first stages of forging. I remember it was flat out like all other perks, so 23% on green to blue and goes down to 17% approx from gold to titan - but I am not sure. When loh was proven so strong in the begining of the GK introduction, I think they put in place this formula. Or it was from the begining. Either way, it cuts back from loh going as high as 7-8k for example. The second counter measure was to refine it with a much lower value than other perks (55% instead of 71%). Having seen what loh does, it was an easy implementation to the new refining system.

How it now works, you can be level 120 and have an item with 2500 loh and i can be 150 level with an item of 2500 loh. Both of which at 4* and both I suspect will have the exact same % to the color change. I had tested my formula with spooky in my alliance when he was close to 145-146 and I was lower than 140. Ive also tested it with my mini account and the results are pretty close, when the loh range is close to my existing data (i can only check purple and gold 4* - so its harder to gather data).

Basically this means, loh reacts in a way regardless of color and level. It has a stable 2% increase of normal forge and a color upgrade which is decending at a pretty natural state, but I cant predict what they use. I can use data to reproduce results.

So heading on to damage… since I started collecting data, which was around 125 level, its a flat out 2.3% exactly. And it still is on bronze and silver forging on level 147. I have actually kept a really low level Prometheus bracelet, from perhaps 125 level and tested it just now, its still 2,3%. Now that bracelet I believe was 1100 damage and I have a silver Perseus sword close to 5500. So we have established that, level, value and color do not matter. But it obviously matters before levels 120 or my guess is 115 (they probably stopped or changed it, then).

My guess is that they wanted to either help lower levels, promote forging, or the complex mechanics of damage vs health in battle required this “boost” to even out or give some more edge to the attacker at those stages.

Back to loh and color chage %, it may be that all perks behave that way. For sure they dont take such a big hit like loh (and some other perks) on higher colors AND higher values, but also even though the numbers are so huge (resist can reach 300k unlike loh which is closer to 6k) the drop in % on color change seems insignificant, as we all use the 6,1 to 6,2 factor still…

Again, I love when well planned mechanics are so genious. I wish I could see more of the backend of these numbers.

I might be able to share the formula tomorrow, Im hooked on this stuff…

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i do make a lots of screens when forging, but i am absolute chaotic when it comes to sorting them - i simply dont do it. atm i have 42GB of unsorted image material.
but i will try to find some items to verify your formula - i will just take some time since mid next week i will do some travelling and cant access my pc.
what i have noticed - but maybe it was due to not comparing exact same perks - was that the factor for mid color values may change a bit, but the overall factor seems to be those approx 6.xx.
and i have to admit - during level up i did forge good perks max but only until titan. then i switched to 1* titan, so i will get problems testing your formula with those. but i will see what i find and which level it was, but it will take some time.

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Ok, so basically I take the forging data, and make some re-adjustments to the difference of the color upgrade, and also some data collected by the original equation which is “value x increase = final value”. We are trying to get more out of these numbers, to understand how it works, as it is not linear.

I then use the numbers to get to A and B, which give me a relationship of the starting/ending value. The MORE data I instert int he first table, the more accurate the results will be. If you try to use the formula now, to try something higher than 4000 or lower than 1000, you wont have a good prediction, but close enough.

The formulas inside the cells, can be really confusing, especially when you can’t see the cells of the excel, to understand the equations.

If anyone knows of an excel “open source”, which would allow me to just upload the excel and be usable by anyone, be my guest, and I will do that, so we can test it more.

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you can import an excel to google doc and share it online (and set who can access, and if people can see and/or edit)
but take care: i think this is not reversable (you can t export the google doc modified back to excel)

At level 121, i m already with the 2.3% increases for damage, but indeed, it used to be higher (at least 3.33% for level ~90/100)

I would have to add everyone manually, or give a fake email for you to log on and so on. I am looking for an easier, solution. I am surprised there isn’t… might be something worth to work on.