GK Changes - Proposed Plans

Your hamburger analogy is a good one, but another good analogy is a parent forcing their kids to eat vegetables because they’re good for them. Whether this demolition nerf gets rolled back or not, I strongly encourage you to rely less on demolition and get some more balance in your hero builds. Demolition is extremely powerful, but also quite limited. It doesn’t do anything against units, the gate, or the gk. AS and frostbite work against all 3, as well as towers, and stun is terrifically powerful against towers, units, and the GK. So even, again, if they modify the demo nerf to 50% or 60% or keep it at 75%, I think you would see the benefits of more variety.

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your parent example is not good though,
1- as a gamer i am a customer nothing else, anything else is unreal excuses
2- i have more experience than you so you need my advices not the other way :rofl::rofl::+1: stop daydreaming bro.
3- you don’t even once seen my setups and this game is a bit more complicated than to give advices based on seeing or knowing nothing, so I suggest don’t give other ppl misleading advices before you have seen their setups fully or they asked for help and before knowing what that setup is used for and in which place, that’s my gaming advice for you

edit: like i said the nerf is there since they couldn’t anticipate true potential of their new system and all is fine will happen more it’s just the start. still regarding the amount of nerf, in gaming logic is totally unacceptable move.

edit 2: you go in a loop again, like always, so read number 2 and 3 again and have nice day :+1:

edit 3: the only thing that devs recognized is their system potential is beyond their initial estimates or anticipations so started cutting things off.

edit 4 @Marinien:
i don’t know how insult ppl, like you do or D does sorry i disappoint you man that’s your logic so far that i have seen

added last post here more related than a new post actually

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The devs’ job isn’t to cater to specific customers, it’s to create the best game they can for the most amount of people. Sometimes this involves re-balancing game mechanics. Try out my advice a little. You can keep it a secret, nobody else but you needs to know. You don’t even have to let me know. But I’m sure you’ll appreciate it.

You’re free to post your setups here or in private if you think I’m mistaken about something. I’m going to stand by saying that if you’re using a lot more than 30% demo on your heroes, you’re neglecting other important perks that would make you more balanced and successful. Or, if you’re not using that much demo, I don’t know why you’re upset. If you say “35% is OP and I need that much”, maybe you’re right, but if that’s the case you could just say that and it would be more constructive feedback.

Here’s my take on the demo nerf: The devs correctly recognized that players were getting through the main defense quicker than they anticipated and then coming up on GKs that they had a lot of difficulty killing, leading people to come on here all the time and call GKs invincible. The examined the data they have access to, and saw a lot of players leaning hard on demolition, a perk that in high amounts makes solo runs through the base easy, but does nothing to help players fight tough GKs. One solution to this game imbalance is, among other things, to encourage players to use less demolition, right? It’s not the only solution, but it’s a logical one.

The last word is yours, of course, if you want it. If you want to keep talking about this issue, though, please make a new post instead of editing old ones.

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Very well-built argument. Made it crystal clear who you should listen to. Respect bro!

@dumpster I am one of your fans, from day 1, and still am. But this is too much!
Your argument was made of a wall of text. FOUR sentences with a lot of commas. Once I got to the “logical” end part I was completely lost :rofl:

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@CaptainMorgan 30% demo is enough if it will impact for all then rules are equal for all happy with your choice.

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And btw as Hades say, both my Hercule’s claws and the Jason’s armour alone take demolition above 30% … so if that value is kept as cap, the uniques alone go above it.

That’s probably not a major problem in the big scheme of things if, based on their testing, they found a major difference with demo >30 builds.

But I’m sure they would consider a change to 35%, for example. So people don’t feel like their points are being wasted. Or to revise the demo uniques so they grant less than 30%, like they did with the cooldown uniques a few years ago.

Some might accuse me of beating a dead horse, here, but weeks ago I swapped from my Nemean Claws that gave me like 33% Demo to a pair of cursed hercules claws with half as much demo but more damage, and I’d never go back. It’s just better

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About a month ago I did a demolition effectiveness test:

Level 140 (which is an important point, I’ll talk about that later). The Nemean was freshly upgraded to that ascension level.
I swapped the Nemean for a pair of LoH claws, which had the same damage. I didn’t need anymore LoH I just wanted to see how much 36% of demolition helped on the path.
Then I just free tested some of the best bases of the game. In average, with the Nemean I reach the GK with 5 seconds more in the remaining time.

So for me, my Heracles (everybody builds their heroes differently, I can only talk for myself), from 0% demo to 36% demo, the benefit was 5 seconds, on a strong base.

The higher ascension level you are, the more raw damage you have, the less effective demolition becomes. If I were at ascension lv150 with the same build, demolition will become next to useless.

So why am I saying all this? IMO lowering demo cap isn’t a nerf for Heracles, he doesn’t even need it. Demolition is very nice for soft-punching heroes. I have like 13% of demo on my Cadmus (1 demo refine), same for Ariadne. It helps nicely but I’d never waste more than one slot for demolition, because there’s a statue who are waiting in front of the gate.

Lowering demolition cap might have a side effect: it forces people to try other builds, which might help more in overall (base + GK). I don’t comment if it’s a good or bad move. But it sure has made a lot of noises.

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Good test, normal result. What we are missing here, is someone on 130 fighting 145+ and he could very well use demo. In fact, for those fights and for Odysseys, braking the gate is considered a win, a success and that’s what you don’t want to destroy. You need that demo to take down the barricades before dying 3 times. This will force a lot of players to actually start improving all their heroes MUCH more (especially the weak ones), or not use them at all. I know that’s what we want, or the game wants… but take from me, I have spend a lot of time in the game, I know what to do, but even so for various reasons, I can’t do it for all my heroes, especially the weak ones. A high demo was a good solution to start using them more frequent. I used Prom yesterday for 12 skull Odyssey, and had only few deaths. Last time I did this, was on level 131.

@CaptainMorgan by any standards, 75% to 30% is drastic. I realize what you want to do, and it doesn’t affect many players, but in fact it’s not required, which is why you should consider starting with a less impact reduction.

However, I will respect this decision, as I have done so with other decisions I disagreed. As a second point, it doesn’t help the GK battle to be restored at all… it doesn’t matter if you get to the GK with 1 minute, 30 seconds or 10 seconds, if you only need 5 seconds to take him out. You need GK changes. And btw, forcing people to use less demo for more damage or AS, isn’t going to work either. You said it’s a low % of players, and I am pretty sure if they can’t beat the GK, they wont add damage to their players. They don’t seem to value damage or do not know.

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thx for sharing your test result - it is a kind of sensitivity test. but it also depends on other values, not only demo.

may i ask you to repeat the same test but try to lower strength to a range about 15k-20k only (in a first shot keep AS and FB untouched if possible, maybe use more defensive perks instead but not offensive ones)?
How far do you proceed then on the same defense with 0% and with 36% of demolition on herk then?

so thats what the devs also asked about: which changes for which levels… if there is a strong relation to damage making demolition more and more useless. they can lower the cap with respect to it (or with levels) but i am not a fan of it. if people do it thoughtful, they will lower demo by there own.

BUT: if they play other heros that are more troop heros and they can clear a base much faster by high demo value and by that also more troops arrive at the gate, so the troops will finish off the GK not the hero, then a strong reduction to 30% might become an issue for them.

edit: as some already mentioned uniques like nemian claws or the destruction vest of jason alone can have higher % then thise 30%. why not start with a value that you get from thise items alone? e.g. 35-40%? by that you would not nerf them (if it does)

agreed

Q: does demo only remove half of their base health that depend on its level and player level only or also the additional health if e.g. a barricade has an additional high buff from any source?

No, it takes 50% of what’s left every time it procs

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Counterpoint: Prom is one of the heroes that does enough damage that there are many viable builds that completely ignore demo. I have basically an unforged prom with real lousy gear, no demo, and I had the same experience as you on a 12 skull this week. I see the argument for low damage heroes, but even then, 30% is kind of a lot of demo. Take half the health away basically every third swing? Sign me up. But I’m sure captain Morgan will listen if 30% feels too low once they make the change, and maybe there’s a magic number that’s a little higher

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i had the same experience but only a 10 skull with him (but he could do higher).
but i solo hammered quite a while against the dor with a 15k perseus (or athena) at a 12 skull oddy. while the GK are not so durable for 12 skull oddyssey, the gate itself for sure is. and demo does nothing in this field too.

so MAYBE they can also thing about a 5-10% removal of a gate health everytime demo procs. then a 30% cap would be more understandable. there are highly buffed (from several sources) gates out there too.

yes i know - it sometimes just does not feel this way against hard bases with weaker heroes. so it was just a kind of “are you really sure” question without any testings :innocent:

I did a quick test. Here are the numbers (just to have some idea):

  • 39K damage, 5s diff
  • 18K damage, 1mn diff

The differences are quite high. From 5s to 1mn. However, if we talk about the same build and only ascension level differs (damage), it’s like 35 ascension level there (maybe I am way off with the 35 levels, please tell me).

The original ascension was 140. So for the 18K-damage test it’s like using a lv105 Heracles to attack one of the best lv150 bases in solo mode (before anyone wonders how my hero survived please note that we are talking about damage here, my hero still have health and LoH of my level, not lv105).

So even if we see the importance of going from 0% to 36% demo in the second test, I don’t think that we’ll see a lv105 matched with a top Titan base of lv150.

I am not really agree, based on how I use demolition with Ariadne and Cadmus (I do have demo for them). But again, I can’t generalize my liking to all others.

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thx. you see what i mean: you cant do a sensitivity test for a parameter that has nearly been annihilated from the system and use this result as an argument or justification that this parameter has no influence to other systems where it does have an impact.

sure about that w.r.t. matchmaking? i agree that 105lvl should be be matched against 150 or even also not in gods league. (the maximum setable requirement for an alliance is still 100 btw.).
so either it is intended to have such inhomogenious lvl mixes on the map or titan/gods league alliances or not. demo can drastically help for lower level to break through defenses, do nothing against a GK or gate but making 90% more easy to achieve.
so maybe it is a change to make the game more homogenious again or perk places will be freed to do other stuff (when GK will really double damage output after update maybe more health or phys. shield or obvious choice of DR maybe) just bc it will be needed.

lets sit and wait.

edit: but you where still be able to beat this (i assume also very good) GK with just 18k damage? :+1:

@CaptainMorgan i do hope that you reconsider your stance on area damage bug.
It literally melts away non shielded heroes like Hades, Hercules, Ariadne in seconds and melee units don’t even last that much☹️

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That’s what this update is supposed to fix

Thanks, i do hope you right about it.

I think he got his acronyms confused in one of the first posts about it, but he’s clarified the proposed changes since then.