I hate Stone Ninjas in offense!

I hate Stone Ninjas in offense for the simple reason that you can’t kill the enemies that are petrified! Why i can “unblock” my units petrified by basilisk with troops and spells but i can’t continue to kill quickly the enemies that are petrified? 

You can easily get confused because you think there are always immortal enemies in defense and the time they take to die is really high to get confused easily. You see a werewolf among skeletons and others troops. That werewolf confuses you because he remains alive and you think you can kill it but you can’t. What the heck?

Let me destroy those petrified units. Let me kill them all.

Having had my attention brought to this issue I noticed that petrified hostiles really do just sit there and just get moved all over the place like rearranged furniture. But they also crumble soon enough so something must be killing them. Pal? King? Can’t tell in the clustermess, and don’t feel like bothering with experiments.

But I think this is all a matter of a slight AI tweak - just as you set troops to attack towers first gates second, cannons fire at all or no enemy troops instead of only some, you also set troops to attack petrified hostiles. Your troops attack their allied units in abnormal states so I can’t see why they couldn’t do the same with enemies. Unless unit attack patterns are very general and the AI is set to ignore abnormal enemy states assuming they’re turned over to the player side (confused etc).

@oPelle yes!! If you remember, a few weeks back I posted a topic in Suggestions for us to be able to kill petrified units. Nobody listened and said that the damage comes back when they are un-petrified. <That happens to not be true, btw. The stone ninjas will more than likely waste you time in attacks. The Unit just sits there and is a reinforcement to the oncoming troops. Please fix this flare as it is not fun at all to have ninjas that ruin attacks

I looked closer and I see that petrified units fall apart when their timer (icon above unit) runs out. Is it a matter of ninja level vs unit toughness that I get this and y’all don’t (meaning your opponents are too strong for this)? What is happening?

True, they fall apart when the timer runs out, but when units take the stone bar down, which most likely will happen with a chokepoint, it just loses you time

Then apparently they haven’t thought this concept through, if a boost makes things HARDER instead of EASIER. Oh, wait, it’s flare we’re talking about…

Too bad, the idea is kinda cool. Wonder what’s next. Confusion ninjas? Time dilation?

This @FTB

Guess what? I was attacking in the war and Stone Ninjas petrified a werewolf. I was running ahead and noticed that my units were blocked behind me. One troops was stopping them. It turned out to be that my entire army was attacking a stoned wolf and no health was going down. I lost 5 seconds because of this. I still won the attack, but in the event of a closer attack it could be a real game changer. I really wish flare would change this. Can we at least get a comment from either @GalaMorgane or @flaretara?

Hey guys, 

Thanks for mentioning this to us. 

The Stone Ninjas are still quite new and adapting to new features can require some adjustment time. FEAR NOT! After speaking with our awesome Devs, here is a tip hot and smexy for you: 

In offense, when you petrify a unit, you should simply make sure that the towers around it can’t release it, so Stun them or destroy them as quickly as possible, so nothing can release the petrified unit and you can simply walk next to them knowing that the petrify effect will make them disappear

Stone Ninjas have been balanced in offense to petrify most units when they dash, so you have a very high chance to make them all disappear very easily if you focus on towers around them. 

I hope this will help you all in your future raids!  :grinning:

Cheerzy! 

That’s not a hot tip. Most of us knew that.

That’s tip not gonna work on this type of base:

n.JPG

In this scenario then you would just need to kick back bombs, and use long ranged spells. There is even a pro perk called “Bomb kick aura” to help with the bombs. 

@GalaMorgane, that map is full of long range mortars that you cannot reach with long range spells, and you cannot kick mortar shots.
there are long range bombs, that yes you can kick the bombs back in your lane, but the units also get petrified in the adjacent lane. you cannot kick bombs in adjacent lanes, or use long range spells, or anything really to petrified units in adjacent lanes. But as mentioned above petrified units in adjacent lane will trigger defensive wolf howls which is detrimental to offense.

That item is very hard to obtain and cannot be bought or unlucked on purpose, but only found randomly, as a matter of luck, in chests. As a consequence, very few people have it, and most will probably never ever get it (at least not in the foreseeable future). Moreover, The type of base shown above is full of towers and units that easily outrange any long-ranged spells by a full tile’s distance, and the layout makes use of that fact, making much of what shoots at you simply out of reach. Thus, the strategy of “make sure nothing gets to the petrified units” is bound to fail - even with kicking back bombs aura, as that does only help right next to your king, and when you have to stay in place and just wait there until any petrified units have crumbled, you yourself will also be dead by that time, or simply run out of time to beat the actual base… bomb kick aura also doesn’t stop range-perked arblasters, mortars or other stuff from hitting petrified troops.

Another issue is that usually not a whole wave of hostile troops approaching you is all petrified at once, so those not-yet-petrified units can still unpetrify others again, making it almost never save to assume “petrified will stay petrified” unless you already beat down most of the base already - but those issues can prevent you from getting that far in the first place. Also, e.g. take a necromancer - it will usually survive 1-2 spells fired at it and can then spawn half a dozen skeletons out of thin air which deal high damage. That can very easily cause nearby petrified units to get unpetrified again. Also, defensive towers (e.g. skull towers on opposite lanes and probably also firebolt towers which outrange your spells and continuously deal high damage) sometimes specifically focus on petrified units to unpetrify them again, so even within your own army, hostile units may be unpetrified again.

Stun alone is not an option, due to being outranged by some troops/towers, and due to not affecting anything that only enters the area after you cast the stun spell, which has a long cooldown. Plus, you always need to time it well and be very cautious because a single defensive werewolf howl can not only nullify any stun effect, but even cause the very opposite effect (rage / battlecry) within a large radius. Speaking of wolf howling… wolfs do howl at allied petrified units, as they see them as attack targets (attacking them to unpetrify them), so even when none of your own units or king is near a hostile werewolf, it may still cause a rage effect due to petrified defensive units near that wolf. Which then in turn of course also increases the chance for the petrified units to get unpetrified very quickly, but also has the side effect of buffing a lot of stuff for quite a while as well. And yes, stone ninjas do also attack across adjacent lanes, so you can have a newly arriving werewolf howling at the opposite lane as well, and there may be nothing you can do to prevent it…

Another annoying aspect of petrified units is that they do very easily (and quite unrealistically, considering stone is supposed to be, well, heavy like a rock) get pushed along with troops. Thus it can happen that your army drags along and forward a whole bunch of hostile petrified units, keeping them close to the frontline and various potential sources of (area) damage. This doesn’t quite feel intended, and often it complicates things. And generally speaking, with the current petrification system you have to worry about petrified hostile units, petrified own units, and ways to unpetrify your own or prevent unpetrifying hostile units. It makes raiding more complicated and more random, which is an implicit buff for defense / nerf for offense even when the petrify effects would otherwise look balanced.


One very recent example of offensive stone ninjas wrecking raids of their owning player happened to me when I raided a base that had defensive werewolves, and opposite-lane skull towers near the start. Through a quite well-timed (be it by skill or luck, but I would argue most of it was intended and planned, thus rather skill-based there) combination of actions at the beginning of the raid I managed to get my king into a position where it could damage + slowdown 2 adjacent skull towers across lanes, as well as killing 1 werewolf next to my king on the first lane, as well as a 2nd werewolf on the opposite lane, plus slowing down or killing a bunch of “smaller” troops in between, all by hitting them with a well-placed and well-timed blizzard spell. You know, that kind of spellcast where you think “neat!” and are proud of yourself for a split-second because it feels like you managed to sort of find the optimum for that particular spellcast.

Anyway, after that split-second, I was quite disillusioned as I found that right at the very same moment as I casted my blizzard, one of my stone ninjas made an across-path dash attack, petrifying the wolf there about 0.05s before it would have died from the blizzard! But now it stood there, rock-solid and with full health. Well, still the skull towers were slowed down, and the werewolf next to me thankfully died and didn’t get petrified too, so still a decent spell-cast at least…

Now, 2 seconds later, another werewolf showed up on the opposite lane, immediately howled at his petrified friend, causing both skull towers as well as some other towers and the next 2 approaching waves (one on the opposite, one on “my” lane) to all go into rage-mode.

Another second later, the petrified wolf was unpetrified again as well, while the no-more-slowed-but-now-raging skull towers had meanwhile killed part of my troops and also my stone ninjas right after their dash attack had ended. Moreover, of course, my stunning ogres that I summoned at the start of the raid to, well, stun opponents to avoid howling, unpetrifying etc and smash stuff were not pretty much obsolete, as the approaching troops were all raging and thus unstunnable now, and the ogres didn’t last very long between a bunch of angry skeletons, skull bombs, as well as arblaster- and firebolts from the other lane. Killing those approaching hostile troops with another spell was - you guessed it - not particularly successful either, as the rage effect makes them more resistant to any damage. Last but not least, an unreachable (not even visible from where I was, but probably also raged-up) Heal Tower healed back up the damaged skull towers as well.

So, long story cut short, an unforeseeable, single dash from a single stone ninja did not only nullify or reverse my perfectly casted spell, but even cause the very opposite (survival, rage and damage dealing) of the expected results (death and slowdown). This raid would have been very easy, but due to that it turned into a very tough raid. I barely managed to win that raid with nearly no rest time, not taking down gate towers, and using some insta-cannons on the way, where without that incident it would have been a “no instas, no troubles, 50s left at the gate” raid. And the most positive outcome of that incident probably was the death of my stone ninjas, judging by what damage they had done to me already… not to think what more might have gone wrong had they survived the raged-up skull towers’ revenge… maybe another such “twist” right when the beast approaches? More havoc caused behind the frontlines, killing off all my reinforcement troops? …?


Now this is not to say that the petrify effect as such may be a bad idea, but the current implementation state, especially in combination with Ninjas - that generally have a long track record of often times causing more harm than good on offense since years - just doesn’t feel controllable enough or useful / positive in their average effect for being enjoyable for players.

And while I have to say, the petrify system can sometimes work in your favour, e.g. when your own werewolf howls at one of your own petrified units, or when you drag along a single hostile petrified unit within your army and manage to get it unpetrified before it vanishes, so that you suddenly have a target among your troops that your werewolves can howl at with no other enemy troops closeby, and while it does sometimes make me smile to shield hostile petrified troops (yes, that’s a thing! neat idea!) to prevent them getting unpetrified, I can’t but think - let alone you cannot shield your own petrified units in turn, ofc - that most often you won’t even have the petrifying power on offense either way: Defense has it not only temporarily by defensive stone ninjas, but also permanently on the new basilisk tower, while offense will only have it for maybe 1 more ninja event by offensive stone ninjas… So mostly, on offense you won’t be able to use that new system anyway, soon enough…

Trying to practice dealing with the randomness it brings, and making the best of it while you can seems like a waste of time as well, as it will be gone soon anyway, and then will still constantly face a mechanic, but without being able to actively use or control it on offense, which is kinda sad imho. A bit like lightning-induced stun - defense has LTs, necromancers, offense has… mostly-unusable necromancers…

Anyway, to prevent going too far away from the topic, I’ll leave it with this final remark: Offensive stone ninjas might seem to suck, but the truth is pretty much all offensive ninjas seem to suck. I mean, e.g. regular ninjas often cause wolves to howl and you cannot scream them back or spawn them later like regular troops, and then they easily die to the first snake tower or mortar they encounter, and many topics on the forum are filled with complaints, even proposals to give players an option to “disable offensive ninjas” for themselves. The general lack of controllability and reliability, the randomness in a place where you need to be in control and all randomness messes with decision-making, planning, etc - or, in other words, kills strategy and “skill” to some extent. Thus, please do not think about “how to rework stone ninjas”, but instead think about “how to rework ninjas”.

Another problem with offensive stone ninjas is that when they petrify units across path, an enemy wolf comes and screams at the petrified unit boosting all towers/units around it! Another big downside of offensive stone ninjas!!

Can’t beat that long story of HeroesFlorian. It says it all (and more :wink: )

 

As RoyaleDing said, this is not a hot tip, not only because of the base of bomb and skull towers shown, but because of chokepoints. Cannons and ranged units will take down the stone bar very quickly and before you know it, you’ve lost 3 seconds because you cannot kill a stoned troop. Stone ninjas are horrible! They constantly are slowing down the attack. Would it seriously be that hard to add a feature where you can hack petrified units? 

It should be like this in defense also. Defensive troops should be able to take health off offensive troops when stone ninjas or basilik’s petrify a troop. 

I can’t believe she suggested kicking bomb as solution and even mention Zelos ring that only lucky player can have it. Is she really not a newbie player as she claim? ?

 

 

@GalaMorgane

There’s already a lot of explanation regarding your defending statement about this Stone Ninjas from other users so I hope you, along with flare staff and dev team will work on this issue.

Player level 34…I guess you could call that newbie. @GalaMorgane have you ever taken part in a Pro League? It ain’t easy and when you get Pro Chests, you have probably a 5% chance to get a Pro Item from them. Only Pro Pearls and Pal Treats

I’m gonna pull a 180 on everybody now and say this:

  1. I have a Zelos ring but don’t want it. I know it has great uses but it doesn’t seem to work for me, I have plenty of more suited rings.

  2. I’m gonna defend GalaMorgane. Maybe not the best tips but at least she’s trying to be helpful, as opposed to 99% of complaints up to now which were either completely ignored or Flotha would come up saying they’ll discuss it. With the way flare has handled communications so far, at least making it seem like you’re trying is a great improvement. :wink: