NYX IMBALANCE

For @CaptainMorgan and @Chris

Apologies for the text wall and in depth analysis, try and bear with it and you will understand the issues more.

Why does every top lvl player plan their bases around generally 2 nyx towers, and why is it so powerful compared to standard towers?

I had several thoughts regarding the cumulative effect of nyx tower (A) and nyx tower (B) in the standard double helios lit formation, initially believing it to be a programming error – but this is not the reason; after all, non-nyx type towers cumulatively effect the health of units damaging them with various types of elemental damage. So what is it then? The answer very simple, which as it stands leads to future implications…

THERE ARE 2 TYPES OF DAMAGE IN THIS GAME: (1) DAMAGE TO HEALTH AND (2) DAMAGE TO MORALE

Loss of health results obviously in death. Loss of morale results not in death (as it would if there were only one type of damage; causing units heads to explode) but in the changing of sides- which is twice as bad, and in effect a more serious type of damage. Regarding standard damage type (1) there a ways to resist, cure and block this type of damage, via elemental resistances, curing powers (Asclepious, golden fleece) and shields (styx, pyrphorous, and bia) respectively. Damage type (2) affects all units based purely on morale value (which has been calculated loosely around x health value = 1 morale point. There IS NO RESISTANCE. (some players maintain that a phoenix with morale 14 has a higher resistance than a spearman with morale 1; INCORRECT- that is like saying when resisting a lapetos tower, Hercules has more resistance than Ariadne, when they both receive the same damage although Ariadne may be dead! It’s simply that the greater morale converted = the greater the reward and subsequently loss for the attacking player. Because of this never changing morale value of units my units, even after gaining +20% health from odessy (not quite there yet!) they will be converted at the same rate. (which by standard reasoning will make the nyx  more powerful in future compared to normal towers) Blessings equally don’t affect conversion rate, giving increased power to the nyx.

FIXES

EASY TWEAK - (doesn’t address totally the fundamental issue when recognising the 2 different damage types) IN ORDER OF PRIORITY: 1.    The system A.I NEEDS Range units/monsters with available range to PRIORITISE nyx towers above standard targets (because the ‘damage type’ being more serious) 2.    Several units SHOULD have INNATE NYX RESISTANCE. My choices initially are warrior/hydra. (one small troop, one large (melee/ranged)  3.    Nerf (very slightly) the nyx conversion range (not the activation range which is different) as this seems to reach for friggin’ miles! 4.    Upon destruction of the nyx all units having been under its control are returned to the player’s control. 5.    Nyx kills units by exploding their heads! (this would negate fix 1 and 4)

 

HARD TWEAK - BUT THE CORRECT ONE GIVEN THE ANALYIS OF DAMAGE TYPES – DO RECOMMENDATIONS 1 AND 2 ABOVE (maybe not 3 and 4 and obviously not 5)

1.    Morale should be calculated directly as a division of health when nyx is converting (example: Minotaur (without blessing) health 66k morale points 6. So 1 morale = 11k health.) – This means a blessed minotaur has a higher defence against a nyx, and oddessy has more meaning in this respect. 2.    Powers such as Asclepious/g.fleece, should have be able to heal lost morale, and regenerate morale depending on values calculated (x health 1 morale as stated earlier – this can’t be directly related to individual units, but could be given arbitrary values – lvl 1 Asclepious replaces 500 health and 0.1 morale per second ) 3.    Powers that shield should do so (arbitrary values calculated depending on lvl of power as above) 4.    Nyx towers att conversion rate SHOULD now feature in oddessy as an option, given the balance has been restored. 5.    As this is now rightly recognised as a type of damage, all units would need a 2nd circle around them showing their morale value.

 

Philstar ? I suggested the idea of prioritizing nyxs towrs as of now only Trebechets can deal damage to nyxs tower in helios light.

Lately have come across one or two bases where nyxs towers can’t be attacked by Damocles spell.

So have to rely on trebechets and heroes like Ajax are totally useless for such kind of bases.

I like suggestion number four destroying nyxs tower should revert unit’s morale.

But I don’t think so high level players that are using two nyxs towers will like such suggestion. 

Also @vasudeva1 suggested the same.

@Hellslord suggested a unit that is immune to morale drain or conversion such Cerebus(as it comes with three heads so nyxs towers won’t be able to convert them fast)

Thanks @HOLYDIVINE, the imbalance will continue if most of these issues aren’t sorted and the imbalance will increase - higher lvl players won’t like it mainly because as it is a max’d nyx (or 2) give a high lvl of insurance against players without a max’d damolcles/or talos.   Also you have to manually att, autopilot A.I can’t deal with them (which I didn’t even get started on!) 

I do realise there have been several suggestions in this area, so apologies if I’m repeating some of what’s been said already. What I’m trying to get people to understand is that there is a quality (morale) that gets attacked, and the factor attacking it isn’t treated as damage in traditional terms, thus creating big disparity. 

Yep there is no build for any hero that can autoplay nyx tower bases but all other types bases can be autoplayed easily including L Shaped double nyx towers.(Recently I am only finding such bases)

What @vasudeva1 suggested before is totally relevant and correct IMHO. Also what @Hellslord suggests is also good (but on this you don’t need the creating of new unit for this, just add % nyx resistance to some units as normal.  We all want new units :grinning:   

50% of the high level maps I play now have one or no nyx towers now that everyone has charon and siren blessings. Nyx towers are almost never a challenge if you know what you’re doing or unless you’re playing one of the heroes who doesn’t deal with them well (Ajax, maybe Prom).

@Philstar and @HOLYDIVINE the truth is that the developers are the stewards of the old players, the players of the first top 10 alliances, the elite, to whom they obey each order. The story of the bug of the forge with the nerf that struck only those who were not at lvl 130-131 that could still preserve the ultra-powerful objects today is the first example and they did it twice this trick. Another example is the blessings of war, we had the problem that the defenses were weaker than the attack and gave all possible blessings including the 2 deadly combos "gate of chaos + phalanx wall " and “blessed sirens + blessed caron” to the elite, if this was not enough they gave him the blessed trebuchets for the attacks, in addition to the super-blessed sirens and the super-blessed warriors, and in addition they put 4000 gems and a titanic casket (which perhaps also contains unique items). For all the other very few things, this is because there are only flaregames for them and all the others are nothing, at the limit the other 20000 players are the credit card to buy the gems to the elite, so we do not think we speak that it is for everyone’s benefit and that it goes in the direction of making the game more honest. I forgot with the absurd costs of the new forge the players who still do not have everything at most will have a huge delay that will never fill

 

Yeah those blessings combos make an typical lvl130/6k trophy players base into an old 10k+ trophy difficulty.   I have to instruct my players in the wars to aim quite a bit lower than before - especially where charon/siren are concerned - I’m glad I won’t be dealing with barricades + gate this time. Bad enough on island map!! 

This thread was really just to highlight the fact that the nyx is given preferential treatment, in many ways, for no real reason.

Counterpoint: Nyx towers are way underpowered, just like every other tower.

Counter the Counterpoint: You are max ascension lvl, I’m pretty certain you have forges way above your lvl, allowed by todays standards, so I can’t really judge your att/def balance.  :grinning:  

Ways to beat Nyx towers:

  1. use damocles if the towers are extended but still in range. If the towers are not in range, don’t use a hero that relies on troops or can’t summon/charm. If the towers aren’t extended they pose zero threat at all. Zero.

  2. Use Ariadne. There, you just won.

  3. Use one of the rambo heroes like Herc, Athena, Achilles, Prom, Ajax (ajax sux). Just call enough troops to protect your gate until you have one or two of the nyx killed.

  4. use trebuchets and bia and pheme. This is what I do. It works great.

  5. Don’t use the mid-morale troops that cause problems when they’re around nyx. The biggest offenders are minos and medusas. Just don’t use them, there’s no need. Don’t use warriors, either, but for other reasons (they’re crappy). It takes a freakin’ long time to convert a phoenix, griffin, or hydra. A long ass time. If you have a bunch of spearmen running through it takes even longer because the spearmen will be converted first and a nyx can’t attack everyone at once.

Point Counterpoint: You probably didn’t play against or don’t remember Nyx towers when they first came out. THOSE were tough. They’ve been nerfed no less than 6 times since then, but we still found ways to beat them.

The kids these days don’t know how good they have it!

Another interesting point which i didn’t mention in my initial analysis, is that if morale conversion is treated like normal attack, and resistances, etc are implemented, there would be no reason to deny a new nyx blessing…  my argument isn’t that it’s strong or weak, it’s that it’s using different game mechanisms to work. If things were aligned then it would increase tactics/strategy.   I find the L shaped more diff to overcome than 2x nyx, it was all an observation of how things are skewed. But generally I raid on the 2x nyx, and dont bring many troops!

I completely agree with this part, though I don’t think bia should cover morale as bias already amazing.

@Philstar thx, great analysis - i have not seen this until now. good suggestions.

@dumpster also thx for suggestinos on how to deal with nyx. i also use triboks and damokles usually, but some nyx just cant be reached (well, athenas power helps a lot on them, but it costs…) - buffed triboks with a longer range would be great ? [btw. i do not regret it that i asked the questions in the november question section - because this thread is watched more by the devs and other players, i assume. and you will get an answer by devs more likely.] and yes, there are ways to overcome nyx towers (especially if not autoplayed) - atm i have nothing to add to the list you gave.

but: it would also be great if we could see the morale drain, so we can judge when units are close to be turned around - or if we could do something with forgeing/odyssey against morale drain, just as it has been already suggested here.

 

edit:

philstar, maybe add an “community manager needed” tag also - but i assume madlen will notice this thread now (or maybe sche already had)

why i added health in my question from the other section… i wondered if this plays also a roll, since it would be natural - your troops get hurt and hurt and someone (the nyx) is whispering into their ears …“if you dont want to die, turn around an fight for us…” - and at some point they turn (units with a lower morale earlier)… more quickly if they have full health. i just had the feeling that it could be the case, if they would mimic real life…

 

There are no map configurations I’m aware of that allow Nyx towers to be effective outside of trebuchet range. So you shouldn’t need longer range on your trebs, but extra damage obviously helps if you’re having trouble killing nyx before your trebs get charmed.Consider taking trebuchet damage buffs in the odyssey the next time you see them available. Typically, though, a small group of trebs + pheme + bia does a pretty good job.

I also notice that the map configuration that puts nyx furthest out of range (the one with the stepped pattern at the start and nyx towers on corner slots) is less and less popular. To me that says that this map has stopped being effective. It also says to me that in war, for example, there should be all sorts of different defenses to choose from if this map gives you trouble. All other nyx configurations can be killed with damocles or ranged units. Remember that defense mode is useful for focusing your phoenixes on nyx towers on the edge of their normal range.

In my opinion, the devs have done a pretty good job over the past year of chipping away at “nyx superiority”. A big part of that is more or less permanent war blessings that challenge the effectiveness of nyx towers and provide good alternatives to having 2 nyx in every map. I think you can make the case that blessed charon and promethius towers are just as powerful as nyx and need to be game-planned against just as much. I think that’s a positive change.

A question and an answer:

The question is what would you do differently if you could see a morale bar for your units? You can’t heal morale loss and can’t really micromanage the units to try and keep them away from a nyx (when you’re at the point where you’re already in-range). I don’t even find the health bar to be particularly useful. It doesn’t change how I play, I guess unless I’m using asclepius, and even then I never look at it. (I look at the health for my hero, but not really for units).

The answer is that from everything the devs have said about Nyx towers, health does not affect morale cost. It’s only the morale of the unit. In this way, Nyx towers are more similar to Charon towers than any of the other towers. They’re a check on defense mode and unit management, not a direct damage tower. 

thx for your answers, dumpster.

O, there are some layouts, but i cannot say how effective they really are, because of missing morale bar. i agree that trebuchet strength is good, atm i have 12.5% from odysssey on them.

in war i like those layouts because a single use of athenas power is very effective on them and helps to reach the gate with a bunch of time. thx, i had no clue that defence mode focuses phoenixes (also trebuchets?) on nyx towers. does defence mode also slows down the morale drain? (again a morale bar would be useful to see and judge)

it would help me (or others too) to judge directly what is going on in the game near nyx… e.g. if i am near the nyx, morale goes down quicker. if some units are close to zero morale, i would not heal them (unless healing would have an effect on morale, which i cannot see and therefore judge). or we could see how many units a nyx is effecting… things like that. in addition i would not have to ask (*****) questions about the whole thing. btw. i do look also on the health bar of the units. e.g. if a fireball gets down the health of 3 trebuchets at once, i go and play soccer to protect them. or ran back to them and heal them… i like the health bar. (and would love to have a morale bar too. but since nyx is the only tower effecting morale, i guess that there is not a big chance that this will be implemented.)

 

so if another question comes to my mind: if the morale goes down and nyx is more effective on low morale units, does it mean that the morale drain gets faster and faster? (again, i would not have to ask, if an morale bar would be implemented ? )

edit: and another question/remark… so when moral does not regenerate naturally (or does it, no idea because of missing bar) it can happen that units passing a 1st nyx turn on you when they are just in reach of a second one… and sometimes even griffin and phönix turn against me - with those big units it would be good to know if it happens. 

 

edit:

i agree… after passing a critical point of a layout, i also dont care much about the health of units. but in the beginning when only less units are around me, i do.

another edit… sorry for that…: just think of the shield bar that appears when cyclops or achilles give shield to units. it would be great if something like that appears on the inner side of the health circle when units are near nyx… btw. shield should not help against moral drain (or does it?)…

i hope that the game wiki (madlen posted somewhere that they are working on something like that, is that right?) brings more information and clarification to the nyx mechanics. 

@NaN It’s tough for me to respond to the nested quotes on my phone, but I’ll hit up a couple of points.

  1. if you think you’ve seen effective maps with Nyx out of trebuchet range, I would encourage you to make one yourself and test it. There’s no unit morale bar, but you can see the purple strings when the nyx is working, or if you move your hero in range his/her morale bar turns purple.  Nyx range is 6.3 and the trebuchet range is 5 something when in fortification mode (its’ special attack where it plants itself to the ground. Not defense mode, but being in defense mode can help to “force” fortification mode). So yes, trebuchets can’t attack Nyx from outside of the range of attack (this is good, or Nyx would be completely de-fanged), but they can attack them from the outer ring where Nyx are much less effective.  A small clump of trebuchets + bia and maybe pheme kills Nyx very well. 

  2. Nyx are much less effective the further they get from the target. It is possible to design a defense where a Nyx tower is truly out of trebuchet range and can attack a little sliver of a path, but this has 2 problems: 1. the AI pathfinding would have to send units directly in range to trigger it, even walking in the middle of the path would avoid the nyx completely and 2. the morale drain is next to nothing when it’s on the fringe like this. It’s why you almost never see these defenses. They’re not effective. 

  3. morale does not regenerate or heal. Morale loss on the first Nyx tower will be added to on the second. It’s why it’s important to think about which units you choose. Spearmen and archers get charmed relatively quickly if the nyx is close (but it’s not true area of effect radius, it’s a fixed number of single targets. In a large army, only a few units can be worked on at once), griffins and phoenixes don’t. I can’t remember the last time I had a phoenix charmed by a Nyx, they’re just not powerful enough anymore. The dangerous troops to use are the mid morale units: blessed sirens, medusas, minotaurs… maybe cyclopses. It’s not that you have to avoid them completely, but they have low enough morale that they can be charmed by a Nyx, and if they are they can do a lot of damage. If you are having a ton of trouble with Nyx towers, take these units out immediately! No excuses!

  4. whether you want to think of the morale drain as moving faster on low morale units or they have less morale total so it takes less time to suck it dry, there’s no practical difference between the two. A morale bar on units wouldn’t clear that up really.  Griffins would appear to go slow, spearmen would appear to go fast. And you can’t heal it (like you can with shield), so you’d just watch the bar go down to 0 without being able to do anything differently. I would be afraid that another bar around the units would clutter up the UI, but I’m sure it could be done. I just don’t know how useful that information would be. But I appreciate that you think it would be useful. If they could work it in well I’d have no issue. 

  5. defense mode does not protect against morale loss. That’s why I say they’re like Charon towers, where they can force a play style when used in combination with other towers. You have to decide if you want to go into defense mode and protect your army against a high damage tower but be in Nyx range longer, or rush though the nyx trap but leave yourself open to taking direct damage. It’s a good strategic element. 

That’s a semantic argument, like I talked about with NaN above. The practical results are the same. Units with higher morale can resist the charm effect of the nyx longer. Units are not equal in this regard.  Phoenixes are extremely resistant to nyx, and your run has to go very wrong if phoenixes are being charmed.

and, a single unit starts to be charmed as soon as it gets in range, but in a large cluster of units only 4 or 5 can be attacked at once, including the hero  

 

 

If phoenix had any resistance to nyx it would state it in the info page under that troop; currently NO troops display any resistance to nyx, maybe @Madlen can confirm this, but as I stated it’s a type of damage that’s not dealt with properly as damage by the devs. 

Using the term ‘resistance’ isn’t right, as that infers its morale converts at a slower rate, when in reality ALL morale convert at the same rate just that all troops start with different morale values.