Refining Unique items: "The future?"

Dear Devs and fellow gamers,

I have done my share of forging as anyone has here. And I was keen to the idea of forging or refining unique items. I prepared a list for when we max the new levels, to be able to find items that can be forged in the way to prepare the original items at least. However we discovered here, that a unique has the ability to get the set of perks on a base given value, depending on how good, that unique is. To make sure I am understood, if a CD boots of Helen, have a value of 65k to 75k, then that base perk will tell you the ability or greatness of the unique. This can also work with health on the boots, but who cares about a few more thousands of health ? In any case, both are indicators of how well your unique is, once you use a 5* titan to max your unique on your level.

So when we found out we do not have to max forge in order to transfer values on uniques, I personally loved it. Because it’s hustle free, especially getting 5* titans to dismantle. However, after looking closely at values on uniques, they are pretty lame… By comparing an item that you make your self, and a refined unique, it’s basically a no-brainer for me. It’s not worth it. Either you refine once or twice.

These are arguments based on double refined uniques, works for all levels, values are actual for level 131.

  1. Uniques are rare, you get to forge them on every level and keep the perks. That’s a hugely misleading concept we have developed from the regular “upgrading” unique. Now you need to make a new dismantle, with the same values in order to “upgrade” it. If you don’t, you will end up replacing the perks you added, with the dismantle perks. You also need a gold 5* titan (double refined), to keep all the values going up, instead of down. So the process is painful, costly and time consuming. You can’t possibly do it every level, while the normal upgrading, was fun and needed, if not every level, every a few. It’s basically making it each time from scratch, when on a normal unique, you just have to dismantle a 5* titan.

  2. They are “forever”. What is that? Like for me, this is possibly the 2nd time I am going to max my level at 145-150 or so. Which means, a unique to be refined, 2 times, is not so important anyway. It’s too expensive to refined them more often, while a base unique just needs a 5* titan. And the levels dont seem to be increasing so often anyway… A double refined normal item, will just serve the same purpose in this respective.

If you had the option to just upgrade refined uniques with any gold 5* item without losing or changing the perks, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Points 1 and 2, would be cancelled… because that would be the major advantage, even if there are not so many added levels… you could possibly do it while you are also leveling up from 120 to 130 or 130 to 140… because those 5* gold items… wont be any good after 5-10 levels… what better way to use them, than to “upgrade” your unique, as we are used to. @Madlen, @CaptainMorgan, @Chris

Having said that, the real argument are the values you get on your unique or any other item. 

  1. They have good unique perk values. Not entirely true. The original value of the perk, is pretty good on some cases (like Perseus shield). Some uniques are great and game changing, or making your strategy easy (easy to forge, and fit everything together), others, not so much or not for everyone. But there are also good uniques, which should not be refined in my opinion.

i) The base value of a perk can be close to 70k lets say for Helen’s CD boots or Cadmus vest. CD of 70k? What’s that? Yes on a unique position (item), but if you just refine a vest or boots with CD, you can get 60-63k CD plus the original perk on your item (say a resistance), and you increase your health. Better yet, you can refine a ring and get more than 75-80k (just saying). The first refining also, is painless… just wisdom lying around. The only small problem, is 5* titans to get that max value of 63k…

ii) Why would I refine these two uniques? To get my CD lower, and have to refine 1-2 more items so I can reach my “target” of 75% for most players? What stops me to take a vest, and just refine it, every 2-3 levels, instead of having to use a silver/gold 5* to “upgrade” the refined unique? Or just leave it as it is? Maybe you can refine Helen boots if you have good cape and rings? Yes that’s an option, and it’s worst than taking normal boots and adding CD to them.

iii) Why would I refine these two uniques, to add values of 40k for a regular perk or 20k for a cursed perk ? When I can easily add 50-53k and 25k respectively for a 3 perk and a bit lower for the 4th perk (35-40k and 17-18k). I mean if you want CD on your unique Athena shield, you can get pretty much 40k if you double refine it… and 50k minimum if you add it on a regular shield, which by the way wont have petrify on it, but probably something more “commonly used” by most players. 

iv) Perk already on unique. Are you kidding me? Not only you can add a higher value in non-cursed perks, but now you can find them on any item or any hero… all I have to do is pick a good perk on a vest or boots, high base values so I can start forging it… it’s not so bad if you are planning something now… it can be hard if you are looking for specific vest with say fire resistance only, at max value. But assuming you will all go from 131 upwards, hold on to your horses until you find your vest, boots, shield, cape, rings… and plan it out… there is no way you wont get to the EXACT same result with refining… either way you put or find perks on your original items…

v) Even the base value of the unique is lower than a double refined item… Cadmus vest goes to 152k and Helens Boots are 101k… You can get those values, with a max green, max forge with just a single refining (not double).

vi) The cost… Assuming you don’t max forge, the cost of refining a unique, is just the amount you pay after you made the gold 5* titan (double) refined, which is 10 million and 3 more days. To be fair, if you want good values on your gold 5* titan instead of refining a unique, you will need to max forge, which will drive your cost up and use more items… But you can easily counter that in any way you find fit… green/blue and perhaps purple max forge is not that big a deal… If you are going to be making a really good item, for 1 year of playing, then you don’t have to worry about that hero’s item again. I don’t suggest to do this for all your heroes… but if you use your 3 heroes to war so often, a extra refining to add CD when you can max forge, therefore using that refining to add frostbite, or stun, or reflection… gives you much more efficiency and resource spending/planning for other refinings. 

vii) You are stuck with the main perk… exactly, you can add anything you like on a regular item, get one of the 3 you want and start building. Who actually always use Perseus boots or Prometheus vest ? 1% or even 10% of players here? As opposed to 90%+ that use Perseus shield or the two CD uniques? 

viii) You cant go back yet, on a unique. You can’t remove the perks… if you regret losing the value of your unique perk, that’s it… you need to find a new one. You can change the refined perks, but that’s it.

ix) You can’t use a unique, other than re-curse it… which will soon become needless, as most players will have all the uniques. Plus, it’s a big gamble anyway… luck/random may be in your favor. Unlike the regular item, which can be used at least for now to forge, or refine a new item or a unique. 

I was thinking of refining a couple of uniques, not the above mentioned ones. Not the stun boots, or the demolition uniques… perhaps Hercules cape (frostbite) or Ajax damage vest, I double refined Cadmus unique shield - can have a better option with something else, perhaps some of the leadership items… but now, I don’t think any of these are worth it at all…

What are your thoughts?

Hi Archimedes,

Wow, thanks for taking the time to write such a long feedback. I have forwarded it. If I get an answer, I will put it here.

UPDATE: The devs say it is very well written feedback and they would like to let you know that they agree with some points and will look into improving some of these in the future.

@Archimides, what you say above is very true. I said several months ago along with our friend Dumpster that unique forges were a bit of a trick.  What you initally get is a boost to the unique that fades with several lvls, and essentially no way to recharge/ reforge the unique unless at huge cost and luck in finding items with similar perk! I would suggest 3 things to affirm what you have already said:

  1. There should be a reset unique to original form button (what this costs- gold/wisdom/etc) as not everyone is great at understanding forging and the unnecessary ‘?’ on refining often confuses people even when 100% of transferring the perk.  There is a minor BUG - whereby if you select ‘forge’ of unique  any unequipped/unlocked refined 5* items appear in the options to forge the unique equipment - it is possible to accidentally REFINE a unique (the only thing showing is an extra stat in the unique image) Refine unique should have  a separate tab IMO.

  2. The cost to curse a refined unique should be a lot less - I mean 20 Million, seriously, to throw away a unique!

  3. A standard 5* BRONZE item should be able to be used to recharge the refined unique the usual way, but not lowering it stats (taking away the boost). You’ve already taken the time and huge resources to forge the unique. Otherwise we will spend our lives in front of the PC trying to farm resources for all these costly upgrades. 

The stat values after the refine seem to be respectable, but only as long as you can maintain those numbers without ridiculous cost.

The unique armour below was refined prob 5-6 lvls below, a normal 5* BRONZE item will not improve the armour, it will lower it :slightly_frowning_face:   Really don’t like this aspect.

 

I think what you’re seeing with that picture is not the way they intended that to work, however, you’ve already refined/forged that item for your level. Things get very weird now when you try to forge an already forged item. (I forget when this changed, I think it was in the refining update though. You used to not be able to forge an already-forged unique, right? Or at least it would always be for no gain. Now sometimes you can do a 2nd forge for piddly gains, like that 100 extra health. It’s a bug).

 When you go up a level and try to forge with a 5* bronze, I think you should see a major improvement to the base stat and maybe the standard perk, and a smaller or no improvement to the refined perk. You shouldn’t see it go backwards like that.

I agree with what Archimedes said, however, as we all start gaining levels again, if we hang on to silver and gold 5* items, they always have value to refine uniques. So you don’t have to build each unique refine from scratch with current level equipment, you just need to be flexible and use what you have. SInce the silver and gold items aren’t especially useful for normal forges, I have a feeling they will start to accumulate. 

Very true Dumpster; also brought this up about 6 weeks, no way to use these refined standard items to ‘normally’ forge a unique. They are good for cursing uniques only. Like you say they can be used if you have had the pre planning to use them in future for forging uniques again.

They can still be used even if you don’t plan ahead if you don’t mind rolling with what you have a little. Sometimes plans go wrong, too. I can imagine in 10 levels having a number of gold and silver items with various perk combinations to choose from, any of which may be useful on a unique to one degree or another. There’s no master MUST HAVE build out there, especially involving refined unique items. There’s a lot of different combos that are effective.

And if I had a MUST HAVE build that I thought I needed, I can just make the specific refine as I go and have them on standby. They’re evergreen for that purpose.

“rifine” is not simple: 1. you must terner account the resistances you want based on the hero

  • 2 as you chose the meastrie in Ithaca

3- and the level you can reach (here I am in difficulty)

Or you can not put resistances on your heroes and be free!

Free to sink , haahaha

Nothing can kill you if you kill it first!

Hi Madlen,

Thanks for your prompt reply. I hope you and the devs are being honest, and not kind to a member on the forum, because it does encourage me to share my views more often. I like it that this game listens to its audience. It’s a luxury, but its great for the game and the players.

I disagree how easy that is… We have discussed this in the past, and it is possible to be flexible, but honestly that would be 20% of the time. We were given a system, where we can build the hero we want, the way we want. I am amazed, how people with different strategies, are able to take down defenses and GKs. This is like turning to be the most strategic game, in the sense that you chose powers/units/hero/gear and it really matters if you beat or not the opponent. I wish I could focus so much in finding ways to attack, but the results from what people show, is good enough to build some basic setups. So I don’t want to lose the great flexibility. Let me elaborate.

  1. I have two gold items, with ice on them… there is no way I would ever want to put ice on a unique. It’s completely useless for me on any hero. I’d rather have the unique as is, than to lose so much of the main perk, and get 1 more plus a useless one.

  2. I have a silver and gold item, with resistances on them. Immediately heroes with some born resistance, are “disqualified”, if I don’t want to reach 90% or even close to 70%, because i am fine with 40% or 50%. These are also rings, in which case, there are 4 perks on them. Uniques on the other hand, do not have resistances for most part if I am not mistaken (except reflection if you count that as a resistance), which means you have 4 perks and possible 2 to be transferred. Not so compromising if its a coin toss on what you get 2/4. And if you have a vest or boots with that resistance, then its going to be again too much, in which case a “perk is wasted” for greater effectiveness. Unless you suggest that you build first the unique and then your other items… possible, but again we add another compromise, making it even less likely for you to actually do or plan.

  3. To add to the previous point, any unique that has a perk, even if you do not have a ring, you still have a gold item with 3 perks. It would be again, very fortunate that one of your perks, is already on the unique, making the other 2 perks transfer at a 100% success rate. That doesn’t happen so often, think of some of the unique, speed, petrify, area damage, leadership. Some players might already think, “Oh, I can use that later on a specific unique”, which is great, but that doesn’t mean it would be common.

  4. Perks which are not needed on some heroes: There can be CD. In which case heroes with 75% are disqualified already. And in this category we have, demolition which In my opinion, should not be added if you have a unique full of it (Hercules/Jason). Reflection, for attacking purposes, perhaps not so bad, but over other perks it doesn’t rank high.

All these limit the use of the gold items on uniques… I think it’s too restrictive. We see people focusing on CD, potency and stun for example. They can’t be bothered, or do not have enough “room” to add “useless” perks to their “plan”. I like “clean” setups, straight forward 2-3 max perks and essentials (some resistance, loh or attack speed). Easy to teach people basic stuff, easy to adapt, work most of the time. Why I see setups with a bit of that, and bit of the other perk, and some of this… I am thinking, how can this be effective, when we know, max is usually the way to be effective (sadly).

Finding a better use for them is certainly giving both (or more) options to a player… I don’t mind that, and it is only a button away. ? 

Hi Archimides,

I would look forward to you sharing your views more often, it doesn’t hurt to get ideas and views from all members of the forum. And yes, I meant what I said when I forwarded the thoughts of the dev team :slight_smile:

All of this is true, but I stand by my thinking that over the course of 10 levels we will all probably have any number of useful silver/gold items to use in a refine. Not every single one would be useful, and some of the ones you described don’t sound universally very useful, but you also have the choice to refine different perks on to your heroes going forward. If you think ice resistance would never be useful ever again, maybe it’s a reason not to refine that.

Well the two are for the GK, only place it was useful. Refining with the reason to re-use in future levels sounds like me, when i get over focused. I need to avoid that. Its also not so wise, when we sit on the same level for a year. I am not sure when the next levels will after the 145-150… but I dont expect it anytime soon.

In any case, if I do have them around and no option, I might use them on heroes i dont care much, just to get the boost of main value (like damage) or at least one of the useful perks… but knowing me, I would wait FG to give me more value on my efforts. These take like 1-2% of my storage… memorabilia even. So I am hoping for the option.

I think at the sharp end, and at max lvl there are greater opportunities to try forging and refining for uniques, such is the cost for players having to lvl up stuff. 

But with some Gk’s being literally immortal, and quite a high % in titan league being close to immortal - this ‘forces’ the build to have a high % of stun + att speed to have a chance at killing these overpowered gatekeepers.  There are many ways to go through the base defence, and in a way a player can have several build types, be it ‘tank’ or high Cd…but the Gk issue doesn’t help with massive att speed/LoH and DR.  Hopefully the update will balance the base defence difficulty and the Gk difficulty leading to more variation in strategy and forges. 

Think it needs to be cheaper to refine uniques, cost less on refine and re- refine. We have what 12 heroes to play with.

@Archimides great thread, thx for sharing your thoughts.

what do you think if it would be possible that uniques have different „layouts“ that can be choosen and switched (like a defense layout)… 1st layout is always the original unique. if you refine it, than another layout is added with the perks available that has been choosen. if all possible layouts are full, then you can choose which one will be replaced. in addition, if refined, all layouts get their max values for the actual perks on it… something like that. would make uniques truely kind of unique… 

just a quick thought. shure hard to implement and needs discussion too …

 

edit: maybe another layout can also be added by forging/dismantle a double unique like the one where you have started making layouts/refines…  because if you have layouts on a unique with thise functions than double unniques would be again obsolete…

This is mostly a result of uniques being as common as they are, but that can’t be un-done. Although they can be made more rare in the future.

I always love more options… even if I do not use the option. And being in a “tech” company, I usually say everything is possible in coding, although difficult. However the problem in this situation is the balancing factor, I don’t think the devs would do just hand that feature out… 

But why would you need a different setup? Unless we are talking about the GK, I cant imagine too many different setups for an attacking hero. You are talking about a unique, I usually would want the 3 main perks mentioned before and work around it. If I had the choice for 3 setups, perhaps something different, but can’t think of a reason now… while trying leadership wrists for Ariadne, its possible for me to switch, but eventually I settle with one setup on my heroes. Like I said, if the option was there, I would possibly use it.

Now for GK… Ive mentioned previously that soon all of us will have all the uniques, and multiple times (I got my 4th Perseus boots last week). So I am thinking of 2 shields would definitelly make me refine one of them for Perseus, since he is probably a great GK and occationally Ajax with a few other heroes under 5%. But I would add something that is good for attacking too. So for that case, yes, 2 or 3 setups would be great.

Like I said before, I wont add ice on my boots, I added it on a ring. Because I use a CD ring for attacking. I added more reflection on my boots, that will help me keep max DR on the next 4-5 levels at least. DR is also more helpful on attack than ice… so thats how I work around these things. 

So if my Shield is not double, I would stick to it mostly for GK. If I had the option to have it refined on a different “suit” I would definitely free my choices, either on GK, or on attack…

They are common at the top, as you get one in your war season chest, and the extra  titan points you gain from the trophy leaderboard that is only possible at lvl 130+ all help this. Maybe also the fact you have the resources (with no more builds + ‘good gear’ )  to hunt the 3rd oddesy chest… I wouldn’t lower the probability of finding them now, as in future,  players joining now will call players like me ‘old elite’, when all I want is fairness, as much as reasonably possible.