Hey Archimides, thx a lot - everything you are willing to share is highly welcome.
but i’m not sure if we are talking about the same thing - i was asking for item min/max-stats regarding to the actual player level and item color when they drop as 1* out of a chest.
In the picture i made this for a particular hero, because maybe those values depend also on heros to ev. compensate missing shields (i did not observe a difference for perks, maybe there are some to base item stats). in addition i thought it would also be nice to see, which perks are possible normally, which are also possible when you have a cursed item - maybe also with a distinction to those rare perks.
the reason i am asking is to have more clarity of what is possible (at the given player level), to be able to compare with items in stock that may be older ones and for a founded decision if a new item is of value or not (like madlen said, some have good base stats, some have good perk stats, some have both good values, some are not…). i think this would be helpful also for new players.
until now what i do is to keep an huge stock of items for two reason: to be more flexible when testing combinations but more just to compare without the need for calculations. in the past my forging strategy was to forge only those with the worst stats and keep those with good ones - it was kind of natural to me to do so (and not the best thing with the old forge what i have learned…). but anything that helps us to see if that item that just dropped is of value would be helpful (maybe only two percentage numbers in addition to the absolute values (but what if items now also drop with more then 1* from war/daily-chests…?)… when i was quite some time on level 131 i was able to get some values for max values and memorised some of them - but when leveling up idk if we are able to determine them (without a lot of screenshots from a lot of different players…)
Anyway, back to your offer: if you are willing to teach how to calculate damage output/health/forging/… and also have some (complex) formulas, i glady open a thread in the section “players helping players”
of course anyone is welcome to participate and any kind to confirm to those results (or share other observations) is appreciated. thx!
edit: off topic [or extension to war: defending / attacking points and delta points (needed to win or ahead)]… here a short derivation from screenshots for a formula to calculate:
pictures are not new, but this should not be of matter… in this example we have been attacked and when screens were taken we have been 12.808 points behind… details of points from info-list…
can anyone confirm this? (in one update the calculation has been changed, but this should be the actual calculation now…)
the difference shown in the overview depends of course on number of skulls and the actual points made on both sides, but also if you are a defender or an attacker…
Actually we are on the same page. But like I said there is a lot of data and its just by paying attention or making notes. I’ll give you an example, like I said on perks its just by observation.
Resistances/Stun/Pertrify/CD/speed attack all work the same way in forging, and start at the same base value. On level 131 that was 11800 to 18300 or so. It wasnt that big of a range. Even though FG never said anything, I had values from all the alliance up to 17500 and not so low. I suspect FG increased the range. They all forge the same, and all have the same color upgrades. All perks can be found on all items on same values and all heroes on same values. (I’ve noticed some differences on uniques)
demo/frostbite/potency/DR also work the same way. They start at a bit lower than half the above… so say 6000-8500. But they are rare, so not much data on them naturally they end up shorter on their max value (40-45%) compared to perks above.
Regeneration I have never bothered with, sorry, not much to say, other than its same logic. Health too, but I am starting to use lately.
LOH has an interesting twist, there is a huge decline in color upgrade, which I noticed way back when building my GK. I have the feeling FG changed a lot that even more, and probably plan to do that even more, as some guys mention. Range was 1200 to 1620 max I’ve seen on 131.
I have stopped worrying about main values so much, Because they dont matter so much (health or leadership especially - damage is more important, physical is more specific). Main values usually have a 3 forge difference between min and max on a color, but its been a while since I checked.
shields work a lot different on base value, they are completely *set*, in higher levels, and forge stars do not affect it.
Every ascention level up or down, has ONE forge difference in these values approximately. Therefore a max 131 is 18300 and a 132 would be 5% added to that which is 19215. I usually work like that to project future values and % - it works fine. At least for the first category of perks, which I deal with a lot
I work with the values, your logic what to dismanle is correct of course, I just lock high values (over 17500 or 17000 if I cant find them) and dismantle the rest. I use the numbers especially for what affects the % of heroes. (Damage, health, leadership dont - area damage doesnt, loh doesnt). I also have tables, that allow me to see how an item would develop, and see if it would surpass what I have. I do like to know my build how it will end… this is cruicial to get max benefit on max levels, especially with refining.
like I said, open a topic, tag me, and ask away. Maybe it will get me to visit more often.
hi @Archimides, i already had opened a thread for this - maybe @Tomaxo can move the last two posts there… the location is - thx again!
yes, i also observerd this but this was before the update and the twaeks to petrify and so … for excample i did forge this item with cd 17485… i also focused more on the values of perks and did not pay so much attention to base stats (because perks can be transferred). and i simply did not keep also base values in stock to compare or made notices…
i also can confirm this.
before the update i did not pay much attention to frostbite/potency but demolition and DR I was always interested…
(but to be honest i kept everything with such a rare perk…). i guess i was lucky with this item: I super forged it with the purpose to be dismanteled for a mirror shield - but on the way i have read in forum that you do not need to superforge items when you want to dismantle it for a unique… it’s ok - i continued and i keep it and when i reach lvl150 it i will see where this gold 5* titan item takes the mirror shield to…
for me on lvl131 LoH>1550 was of value (so this also fitts to what you have said) and i also was not using health regen items (i observed approx 10000 there and now it is about 15000-16000 - but maybe i got them with lvl>131…) …
health as a perk had a range up to approx 10550 (but i had not many items)
what do you mean by this?
i never paid much attention to them, but i would like to because they go up when you refine - especially phys.res. on shields… i also had more interest on damage - i like solo heros
what do you mean by this? - other base stat do this also but just not that high amount because they are lower naturally - but i have not compared a lot, i have to admit…
this is interesting, but i am not sure if i can confirm this - i am now lvl133 (close to 134) and i do not have an item >18077 … bad luck or the time is to short to confirm… thats why i am so interested in mor infos about min/max values - when you are leveling up you just dont know it for sure…
we have similar strategy and interests when carfully chosing what to build … i also made tables to predict values for each step until max titan … but not for refining and after update and tweaks and new levels i assume its ***** now… if we do not get more infos from FG i will look at them when i am lvl150 again… until then i have the feeling that i will not focus on refining. maybe only those items that can be used afterwards for refining uniques, idk. (i am constantly empty with gold and books now, so i dont mind a lot)
i did, but i assume do did not notice even if i taged you from there. (its the link on top).
you said you also know how to calculate damage output, health regen, and so on for heros and gate keepers, including odyssey mastery and hero initial “buffs”? would be nice to see how those absolute numbers are calculated (some make sense, some dont) and to which values their % are related to.
@Archimides (or anyone) … do you know how the stats of a hero have to be calculated or how the % of masteries are in relation to which value… (basic) health?
e.g. lets take perseus and i want to re-calculate his health-points…
he has +60% initial increase and i got 11.13% from masteries … he has 2 items with health on it (boots and armor), in sum 212397 from those items.
the display shows 421549 in total (and 590469 for the gate keeper with identical items on, which is 421549*1.4 because of the 140% for gk …)
so how to calculate his basic health backwards from the total one shown in the info?
is it: “total health” = (“basic health”+items)*1.1113*1.60 OR (“basic health”+items)*1.7113 OR ((“basic health”*1.6)+items)*1.1113 OR “basic health”*1.7113+items OR …
i want to know because i have e.g. 20.8% regeneration from masteries, but the info screen tells me that perseus has 25% (in the normal and the gk version) without any items unsing regeneration … which is an increase of 23.15% in relation to that from masteries or an additional +4.2% to masteries … and i assume it’s somehow related to health and the other boni there. idk.
sorry to bother you, but i’m tired of reverse engineering the game mechanics ?
Hi Nan. I just noticed the mention today. I was at work, but really liked the discussion. I cant quote partially on my phone, so i will try to answer in the order you asked.
Its worth keeping all those rare perks. For one, you can forge uniques with no downsides and two, you might not get them so easy now while leveling up anyway.
LOH. It has a much larger drop of color change update. I will post tomorrow a more specific graph about it.
Physical on shields, are not affected by 1*-2*-3*-4*-5* and have a set value on each color and level. If you see photos of shields (lets say titan 131) they are all 117k , 123k , 129k , 135k. There is no in between… these values are pretty much universal. This was changed with the last update, I just found out now.
For different base stats on leveling: I am 134 and I have already seen 20k (but based on my formula it can be 21-22k). I have also confirmed some higher levels with SpookyLord who is now 138. I will know more in time. I was stuck so long on 131 I could not confirm this so much, but it works similarly.
I have specific tables for all forging outcomes. Including refining and double refining. I think before reaching 150, refinings can be worth it, if planned carefully. Its wisdom cost instead of gold and you can benefit from main power. But cant not be done all the time.
Damage for Hero:
(Base damage of hero + damage of weapons + damage perks) x damage multiplier x speed damage multiplier.
Masteries are added, along side the multipliers. Speed damage % (from perks) is also added in the speed damage multiplier.
Health for Hero:
Base health of hero + (health of vest & boots + perks) x health multiplier x (1+mastery %) x (1+mastery2 %)
LOH for Hero:
This was much harder to crack. Took me some time, but its like so:
LOH of weapons, + mastery which is calculated on health of hero (base+vest+boots+Health masteries) + % of loh of hero.
When there is a color upgrade, you can calculate a full 20% on each color change. This gives you a good estimate how your item will end up. My calculations are usually off by 1%, 2% max if I calculate from green to titan 5*. It starts with 23-24% from green to blue, and drops slowly, I think gold to titan is around 17-18%. I never really bothered with the exact projections, because it is far complex and my tables were pretty accurate as I said. However… LOH works on a lower scale of color upgrades, and I think this changed over the last few updates… I had seen a miss calculation/projection when I was building my Perseus last year… I expected 2 items to go over 5000 loh and i was excited… but they ended up short of 4800. After the latest updates, this became worst, so I did a small study.
LOH has a lower “base” color upgrade which starts at 22% or so, and ends at 14% and lower (its also a bigger “span” and huge percentage drop comparatively - it drops an 8% of 22% which is near 35% drop, while most of the other perks drop 6% of 24% which is just 25% ! This is comparing green-blue to gold-titan on both cases). This should be based solely on the loh of the item, meaning it can be 23-24% if its a much worst loh (or lower item level - hero level). At the same time, I expect while leveling up, this color upgrade from gold to titan, to be even less, so it could be 10% by the time we max out at level 150. The correlation is crystal clear… there is no doubt about it… the only question is if there are soft caps on levels, or pure loh values. I think its value based. Devs are looking to make it “weaker” without breaking the whole concept.
The calculation is an extreme intensive study of the values, raising them to the power of 2 with some formulas and using existing data to project anything within that scale. The more data you insert, the more correct the scale or projection it becomes. This can be very confusing to anyone, and I don’t think anyone is really interested in that.
Hi @Archimides, thx a lot for all your answers - and please no need to worry, i understand and i also cannot answer always asap…
on lvl 134 the highest resistance perk i observed so far is approx 20.5k for 1* green. - so 21k (maybe also 22k) due to your observation can be possible…
regarding to your formulas:
Damage for Hero = (Base damage of hero + damage of weapons + damage perks) x damage multiplier x speed damage multiplier.
Health for Hero = Base health of hero + (health of vest & boots + perks) x health multiplier x (1+mastery %) x (1+mastery2 %)
… why are the first ( ) different to each other? (maybe a typo?)
if i use those formulas i get for layout I on persues: Damage for Hero = 773 and Health for Hero=43890 … can this be correct for lvl134? … i have to do more checks with other heors and layout, but not the time atm…
thx for the hint, that masteries are calculated separate (but actual i dont have one twice)
for item evolution i also did some studies, but i can only play on ipad, so transferring screenshots and analysing them is kind of time consuming (and with new levels and latest tweaks/changes also kind of obsolete - but the mechanics is still the same). i posted some results here:
and i roughly agree to your color change boosts (in my formula i included also the last “normal boost” - but it does not make a difference if calculated in % …
i did not made any detailed analysis for rare perks or LoH or base values… only thing that i observed is that base values have not an color change boost as it can be seen in the screenshot where i calculated absolute difference and also relative ones regarding to those the item had. and i also compared my formula to those…(the last line is the 1* of a new color and the fat one the predicted final value)… but that was several month ago now… (and my tables are a little bit to complicated, because first i had no idea how it realy works… so i tried some formulas). now for a given formula it would be easier to do a parameter fit - so with your suggested idea how to include also levels, its interesting to check values inbetween.
I have checked the formulas countless times. My result arives at the visual always, with some deviation, less than 1%. But you get the basic picture.
I’d be happy to cross-check any results for you.
If you use sharing between ipad/iphone its pretty fast and automatic. I stopped using iphone for the game when I ruined my iphone6. It died of battery and then when i changed the battery the IC component was actually ruined. This is because its too battery consuming and I was playing with the charger on (probably). Ipad (even the old one) has a much better life.
My excels are prety complicated. I get too much info from them. Co-workers/employees always complaint about them. But what ever works for everyone!
i did not want to say they are wrong, i was just wondering because of the different position of the brackets.
i just started to transfer hero stats into an table so i can do checks and calculations (1st i did not want to do that, but now i am curious ) - but i do not make any pressure on that ^^
edit: when doing so i noticed, that basic hero stats are equal when eg. same (or none) equipment w.r.t. e.g. kind of resistance used… so is it right to assume those basic stats (e.g. health) are equal for all heros (if all hero have same lvl)?
Yeap, thats fine. I am just saying they seem to be working. If you find something more correct, be my guest - I would like to use more accurate results.
I’ve never dealt with health of other heroes. Doesnt really matter for me. But for GK it matters, as it affects EVERYTHING. From loh, to longevity of GK and when attacking… it could be similar, I dont think its the same though.
But damage is different for each hero. I know because I tried to see who benefits more from damage mastery or speed attack mastery. In terms of damage they are similar (because they have different %), but then you can see that different heroes have different multipliers (both damage and speed attack)
I am also not convinced that “speed attack” means more loh for example or more stun/frostbite. But logically, if in some cases damage = speed attack, I would go with speed attack so that fact is covered if its true.
i did now some calulations also and started with resistances (which are simple)…
for me “basic values” (this are hidden values, not base stat of items) are all the same for every hero… but i assume they change with hero and player level…
Resistance [%] = sum(items)/“base resistance”*100 + “natural bonus of hero” … no mastery included because i do not master them (i assume just add to natural bonus, or like you suggested)
… physical resistance is higher than the others which are the same … it’s pretty accurate (compared to %)…
for lvl 134 i used those estimated values for all heros (first i thought for the usage of Attack speed 4 damage calculation i used a different base, but since i ended up nearly to the normal one i assume there is no difference… and i started here with prom without an item with attack speed on to eliminate this influence and get a first impression for base damage calculation…
i have not done LoH yet … but it should like you said related to health and the formula you gave seems good to me
I am not fully convinced in that. It could be just more damage, as the whole point of it, makes its simple. Making that perk affect everything else, in a “speed” affect, only complicates things… And it should be mentioned by FG… makes a lot of difference. Regardless of that fact, I tend to prioritize CD and stun before damage, or stun = damage. So its in the works. However for heroes that use potency, its right after CD.
So in essence, speed attack is important for me because it increases damage anyway, which I value, especially for lower damage heroes. And since damage perk is rare, you have go with speed attack anyway. Like I said before, some heroes benefit more from damage than speed attack (overall damage) but the difference is not significant. Therefore damage perk becomes importan in my opinion, for heroes you want to use BOTH damage+speed attack on same item… if you are desperate to raise damage if you have covered your other perks, it could be done.
If you use a different health base, any formula calculation would work. So mine could be wrong. However when you repeatedly get correct estimations, with different input (better items - bigger masteries), it should mean its good enough. I would be interested however in your formula, to check it out. I will test it tomorrow.
As for the rest, they look fine. If you derive to damage base values for heroes, let me know, because some of my heroes were not level 20, so I used estimations. The are all around they 750 mark , some less, some more. But with their multipliers, you can see huge differences. Like Helen is 7000 and Perseus is 15000, while Hercules can reach 20000+
You have to make your formula to take possibly two masteries. It’s also the only way to make sure it works, otherwise it can be a coincidence, as the basic info will always get you close to your target. I tried using your formula by adding the second mastery just like your first one (+). I got to a result close to the actual, but it was double off, from my prediction (1,7% yours and 0,8% mine I think).
However, I used my base health calculation, which could be wrong (it’s pretty old). So it needs more testing. I use the same formula for my Athena, and I get a pretty good estimate on my formula… but I have not determined her base health yet. So it can be tricky. That’s why I said I would be glad to find a better calculation. It is however time consuming, it’s not a variable x you need to find. It’s what is that x used with, multiplied by hero multiplier, masteries, added or not and so on. Even if we had the x (base health), there is a million combinations it can be used by FG, and around 10-20 valid ones.
A way to do this, is to get a newbie to share his stats from Level 1. Each level, you gain health as a level up of your hero. For example a level 15 hero can possibly have a lot less health, which makes it difficult to use the same formula if you don’t know that number. I find it strange that the base health is not mentioned somewhere, it’s not like a top secret. After all it’s just a number part of an equation, makes no difference. Which is why I didn’t bother to be exact with it (which I normally like to do).
But if you try to use the base health a multiply it, especially with 2 masteries + base multiple, the estimation goes way off, that’s why I removed it from the parenthesis. No it’s possible that it can be only multiplied by the base, or the masteries alone, but it still gets me way off. It should be however calculated somehow. Then maybe the number 30k is wrong… not a simple task ?
hey Arichmides, thx for testing. since i dont have a second mastery of health at the moment i cannot test it - therefore i mentioned it.
and of course if your equation suits your needs better its great
for health, damage and leadership(?) it also may be possible that each hero has different values - i did not write them up when leveling them. as you mentioned it what could be done if someone start this game new.
but base resistances should be equal to every hero since no one has an inherit weakness (madlen confirmed this) and i cant remember that we got points for them when leveling heroes. but i did not have paid attention to this and now it to late for me. never mind - maybe when we get another hero…
i also agree with you that FG should give more informations about stats and how to calculate stuff - even if most of players dont care (it seems that we two are the only ones that are interested in this ?). i mean if somebody really wants to find out, he can. it’s just a question of effort.
The base values are for sure different with every hero, at least to a small degree. I have checked health and damage extensively. Of course my formula could be wrong, and they might all have the same, that’s a possibility. As for leadership, it’s basic value + cape (or other perks). Any masteries or hero given boosts of course need to be calculated, but they are straight forward. Interesting enough, I had found many heroes with the same base leadership, somewhere 1871 or so… it’s so devilish, that a dev sits there and plans out these things, and often they code something which makes people wonder, when they shouldn’t. Reminds me of memes, where the dev says “I will just put this here, that will make them loose their mind, when there is absolutely no connection with the rest… ahahahahahahaha” *evil laugh*.
Resistances are by far the most straight forward side of the game. No differences what so ever, and it makes it at least easy to plan. Yes, physical takes a bit more as you mentioned in an earlier post. This is proven very easily. The only thing that would be worrying, is if I had 85k fire on two heroes (no natural resist on both), which yields for both around 75% for example, and one of them dies much easier… that would be evil. But that *seems* to be working ok.
Yes you do get points ? when leveling up heroes. The “given” stats of each hero, like % of CD, resistances and leadership grow as you level up, not always, but sometimes. We tend to notice “unit morale”, base damage and base health… but all change. However I am not sure if these are shown, on the level up screen as soon as you level up… can’t remember. In any case a lower level Cadmus for example has 6-7% CD, it gets to 10% when you get higher, can’t remember which level. And I hope they do not add levels to heroes, ever! That would be catastrophic in so many ways.
The don’t have to tell us how everything is calculated… but at least a hint of what affects them (they do that sometimes - like the first forging change, but lets not analyse what happened)… For example, I may have been the first to pick health masteries, to boost health and LOH on my keeper. At least I thought of it on my own, so kudos to anyone else using those masteries for any reason. I had to caclulate to see if its worth it. Raising 9.8% to 10% doesn’t make a huge impact, while a loh mastery from 2% to 2,1% does. Naturally. But ou could never know if that would be calculated for loh… just like the base health is NOT multiplied by the hero health boost. I confirmed this yesterday with a friend’s help. I saved the screenshots… at least for early levels of hero, it’s completely irrelevant.
I know some things in games are left for the communities to discover, but lets be honest, this is a very small community compared to so many other games, apps or PC games. So its a painful process for “the first ones”. This is why I don’t mind sharing my information. People that find out, and use it to their advantage, is of course their choice, but what’s the fun in that? People then are accused of cheating, or exploiting bugs and so on… And if some people spend some time reading this information, they would be so much better off…
The effort can be pretty substantial… I know some people don’t even care, but they would gladly use your conclusion if you tell them… ?