Unintended Behavior When Forging/Refining Uniques a Second Time in a Level

I’m going to steal @Philstar’s image here, because it shows what’s going on pretty well. This isn’t a major bug, but it’s been hanging out for a little while and hasn’t been reported in this forum.

Before the 4.2.0 update (or one of the subsequent updates), you were only allowed to forge unique items once per ascension level. I can’t remember whether the game outright prohibited it, or you just saw zero improvement on the item if you tried. I think it was the former, though. Following one of those updates this spring/summer, you became able to attempt to forge unique items multiple times per level. Sometimes it would give no improvement, sometimes a very slight improvement. When trying to forge a refined unique a second time per level, the effect is even more bizarre, as it will lower many of the values. Like so:

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Again, this isn’t a game breaking bug, but it’s a bug, so I’m posting it in the bug house.

Thanks Dumpster for having started the topic!

Here are several screenshots to make the problem more clear. We can see that forging my Athena’s shield with bronze item yields 65K in base stat while forging (refining) the same shield with a silver item yields 79K in base stat. As we know, forging a unique with silver or gold item yields higher stats. Fine!

But then, when we look at the same thing, but with Achilles’ shield instead of Athena’s shield, we see the same stats (for base value) while Achilles’ shield is already refined with a gold item (which means the base stat of Achilles’ shield is already higher than before refining).

The problem is in the code: the unique forging ignores completely if the unique is already refined or not, it only takes into account the item to dismantle (bronze, silver or gold). That’s why in Dumpster’s example the item becomes weaker because the unique has been forged to CURRENT level with a silver item, then if you re-forge it right away with a bronze item then it’d become weaker. Ironically, the cost to forge depends on if the item has been refined or not (look at my Achilles’ shield: 20M Gold and 150K Wisdom!).

Again, as a developper myself, I can imagine how it’s coded. But it’s totally wrong to code it this way. I will never refine a unique again until you guys fixe that. The refined shield is more than useless now because even if I want to curse it for another unique, it’d cost me an arm, and a leg.

 

 

@Marinien That 3rd picture is very useful! @Archimides would be interested in that, too.

It looks to me like you gold-star refined that unique, and then levelled up. So you are seeing some improvement in the base and all perks when you use a bronze item, but it’s improved for everything when you use a silver item. I was under the impression that only the base, and maybe the “main” perk would be improved using a bronze forge!

My suggestions would be: 

  • the item should be brought to the current level while taken into account the refined perks and stats using a bronze item to dismantle

  • the cost should depend ONLY on the item to dismantle. You want to replace the perks, you pay. But if you just want to curse the item, it should always be 10M gold with using a bronze item.

I think the bug is that you shouldn’t be allowed to even attempt to forge an item 2x per level (the second time being for no gain), and you certainly shouldn’t see lower stats if you do attempt to do that.

Your points are well taken and would be at home in this thread: 

 

Dumpster, the real problem is that the forging only takes into account the item to dismantle (bronze, silver or gold) and not the item to forge …

In the case of Archimides, even if he gains 1 more level then does the same forge, he’d see a slight increase in the base and the main perk but a decrease in the additional perks. Trust me, I tried to simulate that with my Achilles’ shield.

The real problem is that the forging result only depends on the item to dismantle, but the cost only depends on the item to be forged (no refined, 1 additional perk, 2 additional perks). We are double f*^ked.

That’s not a bug, though. Your comments would be perfectly appropriate in the other thread, which is exactly about that issue. This is the bug forum. 

I thought they changed the uniques forges not to take in to account the strength of the item being dismantled, maybe I’m wrong. My Prom armour was an early forge before one of the server updates, so not sure if it’s bugged or the way they intended, either way it sucks!

I’d just like to see a standard forge after a lvl up to keep the stats that have been originally refined, whether silver or gold forge…

Straight up Unique Forges never took the strength of the dismantle into account, the item would always be upgraded to the max base and perk available for that particular item per level. Unique refines either always behaved this way as well, or they were changed so they now behave the same way.

There’s still no situation where a unique should have any of it’s stats reduced through forging or refining. 

AND the behavior where you can sometimes forge a unique a second time in a level for a miniscule gain (like the 100 health you can see in that first image) is weird and broken.  Both cases shouldn’t happen.

They addmitted that they did change it. It was planned originally that the unique refinings get the value of the dismantle, or some association with it, to be more correct.

I cant comment entirely on the pictures, I cant see the levels, timeline. I dont have experience on leveling up, being 131 for so long. But I do feel that philstar’s picture is no bug. Its intended. And I feel there is some point from Marinien. If you level up, and use a normal 5* on a refined item, it grows the basic power, but not the perks. I feel its justified.

The reason as I see it, is because you cant simply use a 5* titan and have the same effect on a unique, a refined unique and a double refine unique. I wish it was like that (being all 4 perks upgraded), but its not. And perhaps it will never be… too unbalancing I believe. You would upgrade every level or 2-3 levels…forget the cost, all it takes is 5 titans, as opposed to 15 titans and a lot more resources.

I dont want to repeat my suggestion here, but, this part seems normal. Now the silver and normal forging on that Achilles shield, still has some justification… depending on the timeline of actions. Medusa shiels also looks normal. At least how I comprehended how the system works.

i’ll find time to read all comments again, maybe I missed something.

Please elaborate more. What is wrong?

I see in both your cases, that your shields get the same base value (2x2). Which is the given physical for your level. That Medusa shield is approx 11 levels older than Achilles shield, 16 levels from your current. Achilles shield is 5 levels older than your current level.

Stats seem fine. Forge results look ok. 

There’s only been one time where a forge intentionally lowered the values of the equipment, and that was after they messed up the formula for cursed items. When it was happening right after 4.2.0 on regular forges they came right out and called it a bug. I’m positive this is the same situation. I mean, first off, you’re not supposed to be able to forge uniques more than once per level. There’s no reason to spend big resources to lower the stats on an item.

@dumpster what I think happened, is that they changed the coding to allow the same unique to be “refined” again with different perks if you wanted, so your unique is not wasted if you completely wanted to change strategy. Which is VERY good in my opinion. Refining changed the “rules”, because there is more to it, than just upgarding it to your level. 

Apparently they didnt make it too complex, as to dissallow a 5* forging or a silver on a double refined unique. I would like to test that more on later levels, because there might be a logic. As the pictures of the shields above, you actually get your physical up to notmal, and increase the other perks. Maybe my strategy is to use a 5* titan only, 10-15 levels after. To dissallow a forge, or a lower type of dismantle once on same level, sounds logical… could be that it complicates things too much in coding…

Aside that last part, which i agree with you… I think the results of values are normal, or else it would be an exploit.

Ok, I agree with you that they kept a lot of options open when they added the unique refining (good), but they also introduced a bug. It should be possible to continue to upgrade uniques every ascension level once for bronze, once for silver, and once for gold, if you choose to go in that order (or you can skip right to gold level and reach the same values). It should be possible to swap perks on a unique that’s already silver or gold refined, using another silver or gold 5* titan, but the max values for that level and those perks should be maintained, not improved or reduced.

Bronze forging should not even be an option for a unique that’s already been forged at the current level, or already been refined at the current level (and brought up to max stats that way). If it only displayed a gain of zero’s across the board, it would be bad enough that you had the option to spend the resources for no gain. But when it does allow you to refine a 2nd time for full price and a .00001% stat increase…that’s not right. And there’s no reason at all for reduced stats.

Archimides, you’ll be surprised ?: the two shields are at approx at the same levels (not exactly the same but the levels are VERY close).

The base of Achilles shield is far higher than Athena shield because I refined it with a Gold-star item (you can see the differences in my examples when forging with Bronze-star or refining with Silver-star).

The problem is that I paid very expensive to have 2 more perks AND a higher base. But the higher base advantage is gone when I forge again. To keep the higher base advantage I need to dismantle a Gold-star item… It could be fine for me that way but why the cost doesn’t depend on the item to dismantle? Using a bronze-star on Achilles shield costs 20M gold and 150K wisdom, while using the same item on Athena shield only costs 10M gold, the the results are the same! Do you find it normal?

Whenever you forge with gold or silver you get an initial ‘boost’ which can’t be recharged unless you forge again with another gold or silver (depending on the initial forge). A standard bronze forge while the ‘boost’ is still in effect (bout 6-8 lvls depending on silver or gold forge) will lower the stats to how it will be AFTER the boost has worn off.   I don’t like the system doing this, gives a false impression that unique forging is awesome. It is if you are at high/stable ascension lvl, but leveling up, you just shoot yourself in the foot with very expensive re-forges in the not to distant future. 

Can you explain this more?

The Prom image above and the Ariadne boots below were both forged about 3-4 lvls ago (Prom with silver 1 perk added, Ariadne’s gold 2 perks added)  Both obviously get an initial boost to perks and base stat for around 6-8 lvls (gold boost lasts a bit longer) , and so they will continue to lose power for that time as you lvl up ( or invest again with either a silver or old forge during this time, which can be hard to find the cursed perks in many cases) .

Any forge during this period with standard 5* bronze titan item, will lower the stats to how the item will be after the ‘boost’ period has warned off.  WE talked about this several months ago, maybe you can find the thread… unique forging is misleading.

Did Chris or Captain Morgan say that, or is it just a theory?

found it posted August 2nd