Werewolves: All Wrong! No Were? No Pack? And Frost?

I have been very disappointed by the werewolf in so many ways!

 

First: The Werewolf should be a member of a wolfpack!  So it shouldn’t be a unit with a high morale cost!  It should be probably about 5 morale.  And obviously for balancing it’s powers would have to be reduced, but that way you could spawn a wolfpack.  Also they should be stronger when they are in proximity to each other maybe a group healing, but I’d rather see a group rage that increases their attack.  That would make it important to save up some morale and spawn them all at once instead of one by one.

 

Second: the fundamental quality of a werewolf is it transforms from a human to a wolf and vice-versa. But in Royal Revolt the werewolf is actually just a wolf. 

Albeit a new element of surprise in the game would be for a werewolf to appear like a knight and then just before it engages in combat it transforms into the wolf form.  It might even be a tactical benefit in defense because the raiding king would see a knight or group of knights approaching and he really wouldn’t re-direct his troops for just knights.  Then suddenly the knight or knights would transform into werewolves right among his cannons hopefully, and he’d be screwed!

 

Finally, I have a problem with frost being the werewolf’s weakness, the werewolf according to legend is the monster of the cold north!  He should have any other weakness but frost!

1- I don’t like that idea, I prefer the big werewolf how it is now.

 

2- I insist, the transformation doesn’t seem to work, it would interesting but there are so many details in the game mechanic that would make it hard to implement on an effective and balanced way.

 

3- Yes, it’s a big contradiction how they’re weak to cold, but I guess it’s because of the balancing stuff of the game, 

 

 

I’m not going to fight point 2.  Since that’s literally a whole other thread.

 

But point 1 I’m very insistent, I’m right.

I’ve been very annoyed by all the monsters in the game with the exception of the Gargoyle (which is it’s own unique flying thing), all the monsters are just variations of the big lumbering ogre.  We have Basic Ogre, Ogre with resistance to Arrows (Mummy), and Fast Ogre (Werewolf).  All high morale, no variation, or imagination.

Not necessarily.

Ogres: Slow, AoE, dodgeable

Mummy: Medium, somewhat AoE, Stun, undodgeable

Wolf: Fast, single target, Battlecry, undodgeable

They have a lot of variation. Personally, I find Ogre to be the best monster when unboosted.

One thing I will say about point 3, though. I feel you’re right in that Werewolf shouldn’t be weak to frost, and for 3 reasons:

  1. Contradicts the mythology

  2. Since Frosters deal next to no damage, it was always an irrelevant weakness except against Blizzard. Likewise, Skull Tower is already weak against Blizzard, so there doesn’t need to be more weakness

  3. Since the addition of Frost Blasters, Werewolves are now entirely irrelevant. The buffing of Blizzard, too, makes them entirely irrelevant.

Overall, the only good thing about the Werewolve’s weakness was that was weak to the king’s sword, which almost always has Frost damage. But… I think that you could achieve the same effect with a 50% weakness to Normal damage. So that’s what I’d prefer to see on the wolf.

Well, wolves come in packs, but do _were_wolves also do? Some mythological stories say they do, others say they’re rather - literally - lone wolves… so I don’t have problems with RR2 werewolves being more the lone wolf type. But, if you have enough morale, you basically can still have a pack of like 3-4 wolves in your raiding party at the same time. Also, don’t forget the werewolf isn’t supposed to be just a regular, common wolf, but rather a rare, legendary powerful creature. :grinning:

Making them cheaper and weaker isn’t a good idea in my opinion, as it would make them a lot more susceptible to any kind of AoE damage (frosters, pyromancers, mortars, ogres, gargoyles, boosted archers, skull and bomb towers, as well as all kinds of spells), that deal full damage to each unit within range.

Also, comparing the attack values of wolf (316 damage / 316 boosted) for 16 morale, and knight (310 damage / 646 boosted) for 1 morale, it should be clear that raw damage never was nor will be on the side of wolves. :grinning:

It is true that the RR2 werewolf does not shift its shape during a raid, but looking at his appearance, I’d say he is already kind of half-human, half-wolf… he definitely doesn’t look like a regular wolf. And this mixed “half-wolf-half-human form” isn’t that uncommon for werewolves… 

 

 

Still, the idea of a surprise werewolf sounds interesting, and I agree the weakness is (logically) not chosen well, but rather an act of game balancing. 

 

 

Btw, max lvl (lvl 13) blizzard still doesn’t completely kill a max boosted wolf, so the additional blizzard lvl doesn’t make much of a difference there. Also max skulls still take 3 max blizzard casts to crumble, no difference there either. 

Oh, really? Wow, that’s nice. Couldn’t believe it but just tested it and you’re right :wink:

Then, sry for wrong statement above, I guess it was my impression only that was distorted by bugged spells and healing arbs… 

 

Even your defense of their differences make them sound pretty similar.

They all have Stun except the Werewolf they tweaked the stun instead of pausing the enemy they sped up the friendlies, really the same effect.

And again all monsters are big and high morale give us smaller and low morale so we can build a wolf pack much like we do with knights but for werewolves!  That would be awesome!

 

I totally agree the werewolf has been made pretty much useless by Frost Blaster. 

And fixing frost damage would at least make him a useful unit again.  

 

Moreover, I don’t think Frost needed a bump.  I use Frosters in my defense and in almost all my attacks.  And I rarely ever see a werewolf, and when I do it gets embarrassingly raped.

One thing to keep in mind, there’s no froster boost, and there’s a werewolf boost, and those things are hard to bring down without a near-max blizzard spell, and frosters just aren’t up to that job at all… add to that the wolf’s howl with double strength and slow-immunity (kind of a frost effect resistance, if you think about it!), and you know those frosters alone aren’t an adequate counter (especially, as the froster’s own resistances get simply completely ignored by most other units^^). And on defense, 1-2 frosters per wave is nice, but any more aren’t much use either, as the slow effect is the same no matter whether 1 or 10 frosters fire. Any really froster-heavy waves will in most situations be annihilated easily. 

 

And not sure about the frost arblaster… on offense it is nowhere as effective as some other troops, while on defense it is overpowered… 

 

Still, I think I can agree that unboosted wolves aren’t really worth their morale, unless for very special situations maybe, especially if you haven’t beaten the higher level werewolf dungeons and unlocked the higher werewolf levels yet. 

 

 

 

Take boosted ogre, mummy, werewolf and you have 3 completely different units with completely different usage cases, really! 

 

The werewolf buffs all troops, towers and obstacles within range (which is very large and symmetrical, centered on the wolf itself, and including itself), speeding them up, increasing damage, health and giving them immunity vs slow and panic effects. If you want to deal with him, you have to prevent his howl at any cost by killing him before he reaches you - either by massive ice damage (against everything else he’s too tanky to care about) from blizzard, or by some luck and a well-timed stun effect when he arrives at you, and then concentrating all fire onto him. Also, he’s the most tanky unit overall. On the other hand, his own single-target melee damage is mostly neglectable in most cases (unless except cannons). So, if you meet the werewolf alone, he’s no danger, but when he arrives as “pack leader” for a raiding party or defending wave, he can easily make the difference between success and defeat. 

Also, he can save you time on your raid by speeding up you and your raiding party, which is especially important when raiding with slower troop types (e.g. archers, arblasters). He also has an effect on your hero gear setup - his howl means you don’t need as much scream-boost gear, his cost means you will want to bring more leadership-boost with you. And, he is very fast (fastest unit ingame!), so you can summon him until very late in the raid, and he will still reach your raiding party in time. Also, you can send them ahead as a vanguard across obstacles, holding off the hostile troops while your main army advances with much less trouble. And of course, his speed, howl and morale cost make it very necessary to time the spawning of wolves, your own hero scream as well as your interaction well, in order to avoid screaming and howling at same time (and then having none of them later), and in order to keep one wolf with your main army and both at the front line (to be “able” to howl) and alive. 

 

The mummy stuns hostile troops and structures within range, but only for a rather short amount of time. Also, when the mummy casts its stun is more random / nondeterministic, so you can’t rely on it for situations where you need perfect timing. The mummy is probably the slowest troop in the game, so you have to take care not to get your king or army “trapped” behind your own mummies, delaying your progress and limiting your mobility greatly. Though, to make up for that, the mummy is the only unit that will always spawn right next to your king instantly, instead of having to travel all the way from the tent to the front line. This also means you can summon a mummy as shield for your king or troops anytime, as well as use it to the very last second of your raid - it will always appear where you currently need it to be. It’s single-target poison damage obviously also deals damage over time, and the amount of damage is enough to bring wrath to any single foe, be it your king, a hostile monster, or a group of paladins. Even if you survive the strike, you may very well die from the poison a few seconds later. 

The mummy obviously won’t speed up your raid, but it can buy you important rest time as meat shield and stunner when you find yourself surrounded by hostile troops or structures, and it can be decisive for winning your raid by spawning directly at the castle gate and stunning any hostile wave troops that spawn there. Though, it is less tanky than the wolf, as it has less health and 2 weaknesses: Fire and (not displayed ingame on the info tab) blunt damage. 

And the boosted mummy - anything so far applies to regular mummy as well, by the way - has another extra for you: Whenever this ancient undead king is about to be defeated, it will summon a squad of angry knights for taking revenge! And especially if you also have the flaming knight boost active, these 10 free flaming knights right where the mummy died basically mean you can bring 4 types of troops into battle instead of just 3.

This also opens up completely new strategic possibilities - you can summon a mummy when you have a strong damage source nearby, in order to basically summon boosted knights in place. You can even use this against e.g. the doom gate - it launches a hail of deadly skull bombs onto your 5 mummies, and suddenly, you have 50 flaming knights that smash at the gate!

Though, this tactics requires perfect timing - obviously, you don’t want those knights to spawn right in the middle of a skull bomb shower or surrounded by tons of hostile (area of effect) range troops, or they will all die within the next second or two. On the other hand, if you need knights (e.g. for knocking down boosted barricades) “now”, you need to make sure the mummy can die as soon as possible, or you’re stuck. So you can’t just use your heal or shield spell all the time, or the mummy will never die and you will just run out of time very easily, and also you kind of “rely” on some source of damage coming at you that could also kill your king if things go wrong… both, planning ahead and reacting quickly is crucial here. 

And on defense, such a surprising mummy obviously is very likely to take 2 spells to bring down: One for the mummy itself, and another one for the knights. 

 

The ogre marches forward slow but steady, and (unless this rather stupid giant gets stuck while trying to reach an out-of-reach across-path tower) will go ahead and smash anything on its way with easy. The ogre deals blunt damage, making it quite effective against any kind of tower, and his big range makes him capable of even reaching firebolt towers that are unreachable for any other melee unit. The ogre attack also deals damage to anything within its area of effect, making it quite effective against structures placed together closely, as well as of course any kind of dense troop formation - one hit can kill or badly injure half of your army, or a full defensive wave. Having only one weakness - piercing damage - basically also makes the ogre very tanky. Though, this one weakness is also the Achilles’ heel (quite literally) of the ogre - arblasters, archers (if they can get close enough before getting smashed), as well as the swordrain spell can make him fall across path overlap before he can unleash death and destruction. Though, the ogre detects and smashes traps in ahead, so at least you don’t have to worry about those. Oh, and there’s another thing, his hits come rather slow, so at least hostile kings might easily dodge them. Though, when the ogre hits, he hits hard, and as already mentioned, his strikes are deadly. Many troops, and incautious kings have fallen to the green giants of doom! When using him, either in waves or attacks, bringing either wolves for speeding the ogres up, or frosters to slow down their enemies, will be greatly beneficial. Anyway, protecting him against piercing damage by shield/heal spells on attack, by base layout and troop combinations on defense, is key for being successful with the ogre. And time management, of course… he is neither fast as the werewolf, nor can he be summoned right next to you, so he will have to stamp his way towards the front lines. 

Thankfully, the boosted ogre - anything above basically applies to the unboosted version as well - has gotten a nice upgrade to its huge club. This - or his stunning looks, as some say - enables him to basically freeze anything ahead and next to him within a relatively large distance whenever he strikes. This stun effect even can be applied across path overlap. A few of those guys with alternating strikes will easily flatten out those hostile defenses, or reduce a full army of troops to nothing more than fine dust: Hit, stun, hit, stun, hit, stun - and any foe is dead without even having a chance to retaliate unless your hero scream brings them back to “life” from their freezed-in-place state. One ogre blow can also crush a tent and end a raid… so whenever you face those walking walls of doom, make sure to get your archers/arblasters ready together with a hero scream, or bring a very high lvl swordrain spell, or you won’t make it out of there… oh, did I mention you can get 3 of those guys, together with 2 frosters or 3 archers into a single max lvl wave, followed by a wave of cunning-fast raging wolves to speed them up and buff their health? Now you might be able to imagine why that was the single dominating combo for a while. 

 


 

For unboosted monsters, they are all rather tanky and rather costly, yes. But you can just as well say froster, pyromancer and mortar are the same (all medium cost, medium-long range, AoE damage, secondary damage type effects), or say knights and paladins are the same (all melee and rather cheap), or archer and arblaster are the same (all dealing piercing damage and walking rather slowly). You could even argue knights and archers are the same (both cheap, rather weak, short-ranged, available very early), or paladins and pyromancers are the same (slow, many weaknesses/counter-units, mostly useless in high lvl gameplay and just the worst you could ever do in top lvl gameplay). 

There will always be some things that are similar or the same for different units. And monsters are supposed to be strong and fearsome, they’re monsters after all, so to balance their strength they also have to be rather expensive. 

I disagree, Heroesflorian.

But basically you’re saying it takes a boost to even make the werewolves interesting. 

Even your attempt at defending them doesn’t make them look very good.

Come on Flaregames, fix this problem give us a Wolfpack!

 

 

 

I even said in the post above that unboosted wolves aren’t really worth their morale, so what exactly do you disagree with when saying yourself the wolf isn’t strong enough? 

Also, I definitely didn’t write anything defend the unboosted wolves in any way - even the contrary. And you may even have noticed that in contrast to mummy and ogre where after a large chunk of their description I wrote that all above is true for the unboosted version as well, I didn’t write that for the wolf, as I do very much know that the unboosted wolf’s howl ability doesn’t really cover any other units and without the howl he’s not that tough for most of the game. 

So please don’t state I attempt to defend them. 

 

Also, you mix up different lines of argumentation. You have 2 theses: 1. Wolf is too weak, 2. Monsters are too similar. For the first one, you have to differentiate between boosted and unboosted version, and for the second one, the strength of the wolf is irrelevant and it is rather the differences between wolf, mummy, ogre that count. 

If you read through my (admittedly long) post, you will find that those three monsters are very different in their stats, effects and how to deal with or against them. Do you disagree with that line of argumentation? If so, then please don’t just say “I disagree”, but also point out why, or I will consider my argumentation valid. 

 

Twisting that, you could also say for wolf there is a boost, while some other units (paladin, pyro, mortar,…) are useless without boost and have no boost to “fix” their weakness either.

Not saying the unboosted wolf is fine, just pointing out it is far from the only point where the current troop strengths are unbalanced. 

 

And, really, the boosted wolf isn’t bad. I know many high lvl and top lvl players use them for either offense, defense, or both, which they wouldn’t do if the boosted wolf was useless. And in fact, the boosted wolf was even nerfed a bit because there were complaints of it being overpowered. Thus, generally saying wolves are too weak and even boosted wolves don’t “make them look very good” makes me wonder if you ever tested or faced boosted wolves? 

 

 

On a different point, please explain in more detail how cheaper, weaker wolves would make them any better? Currently, their tankiness is the only good thing I can see at all for the unboosted wolf. All spells in RR2 are AoE (area of effect) spells, so more wolves that are individually weaker makes them directly weaker against each and every spell, as well as all the AoE unit types, which I already mentioned before: 

And, believe me, AoE is a very important aspect of the game. It is also the main reason why a pure (boosted) knight spam will never work on a hard base. And the knights are fast, deal normal (+ fire, for boosted ones) damage, are very cheap, and (at least boosted ones) also have quite decent health, and have a WAY better stats/morale ratio. So when even those guys can’t succeed alone, how could a weakened, slightly cheaper wolf version succeed alone?

 

 

So what are the exact details which would actually help to make them better when making them weaker and cheaper? So far we only heard arguments that would speak against the wolf pack concept. 

 

 

If you want my opinion, I would rather argue to *slightly* extend the unboosted (but not the boosted!) wolf’s howl effect radius so that it could at least buff *a few* friendly units, instead of in like 95% of all cases only buffing itself and no single other unit as it is currently. 

What I’m suggesting is a balance.  Something between a knight and the current “fast ogre”.  So we don’t have three of the same units and do have something new.

God knows knight spam is fun it would be awesome to have a version of knight spam that albeit at a higher level.

So I’m thinking 3 to 5 morale units.

Lol, I must  give you this, your pretty stubbern and convinced you are right :wink:

Yes, this guy is really secure about his position even when four people have argued the wrongness of his suggestions, I mean, Florian even wrote a bible with many details…

Right and wrong are just facts they’re not elective.

True. And to prove something a fact, you need arguments, either logical reasoning or statistics. You don’t really bring any, I brought many… 

 

Anyway, take boosted knights, and support them with some other troops - there you have your high-lvl knight spam. A pure simple spam of 1 unit alone won’t make you win though, so you’ll always have to do some work around your spamming unit, be it other troops to back them up, be it clever selection and timing of your spells to keep the knights alive. 

 

 

One common top-lvl raiding combo is boosted mummy (spawning boosted knights), boosted archer, boosted wolf. Another combo is using knight archer wolf, another one knight archer cannon, another one knight archer froster, or even knight cannon froster. 

As you see, it’s a matter of fact that great amounts of knights are already in use at the top, you just need some support for them, and that is good. If simply spamming 1 single button is enough to win hard bases, then something is wrong… 

 

 

Anyway, read the above long posts of mine please, your latest comments make me think you didn’t even read what I said, if you still just say the wolf is a “fast ogre” only and that a 3-5 morale wolf would be better.

But ok, if you want to argue that way, then please make sure to try the slow knight (paladin), as well as the ranged knight (archer) and the long-ranged knight (arblaster), and of course the ice-area-damage-ranged knight (froster), you can spam all of them in same or greater numbers as you could with your weaker-fast ogre (weaker-wolf). 

 

— 

 

If you want, I might get you a spot for some hours in Todesritter during war break, then you can test boosted wolf and see what this raging beast feels like.

Though, first what’s your current wolf lvl? Because for sure the lvl 1 wolf will never be as strong as you might want him to be, same as any lvl 1 unit never will be that strong. 

Honestly, I don’t see that you’ve provided any facts that related to anything…

To me your statements are very conservative you just give me a lot of information about the way things are and say with no imagination that you don’t want change:

 

I don’t know how to quote a particular are of anything you said so I’m just going to copy and paste:

 

You said: And, believe me, AoE is a very important aspect of the game. It is also the main reason why a pure (boosted) knight spam will never work on a hard base. And the knights are fast, deal normal (+ fire, for boosted ones) damage, are very cheap, and (at least boosted ones) also have quite decent health, and have a WAY better stats/morale ratio. So when even those guys can’t succeed alone, how could a weakened, slightly cheaper wolf version succeed alone?

 

You said Knight’s can’t succeed alone so how could wolves?  I don’t honestly understand the logic behind that statement.  Obviously if they were balanced with the intention of them being able to succeed alone, then they could.  Your asking could a hypothetical unit that we are imaging winning the game.  Yes, depending on how we imagine it!  This is the problem I have with your “facts”.

 

And to note everything I said was based on facts. 

  1. The Werewolf should be a member of a wolfpack!  (Fact based on the understanding of the wolf or werewolf lore take your pick.) 

  2. The fundamental quality of a werewolf is it transforms from a human to a wolf and vice-versa.  (Fact based on the word werewolf.)

  3. The werewolf according to legend is the monster of the cold north!  (Fact based on the understanding of the wolf or werewolf lore take your pick.)

 

P.S. And I haven’t seen a single argument that the Werewolf wasn’t just a fast ogre that I honestly thought was worth even responding to. (Obviously a fast ogre would be harder to dodge, maybe impossible?  And in keeping with being fast, in stead of slowing down his enemies he speeds up the friendlies, unfortunately game play wise that’s really basically the same thing so again no variation.)

And so developers should change also the mummy like werewolf you say, it should be a human and then when it dies become a mummy and if it is an Elite Mummy, it should die again to spam knights ? So it should die 2 times ? Oh it’s not real this game, it’s “fantasy”, if we should consider also everything about Damage Types (Normal, Piercing, Blunt, Poison, Fire, Ice) they should be all wrong since mummy doesn’t poison damage but only normal hits ? (Oh, wait, mummy should die permanentetly if we consider real everything in this game…),

What about Gargoyles? We should change also them since i never seen gargoyles drop bombs on people, i saw them only in the architecture of the cathedrals…

And Ogre? Ogres shouldn’t have Blunt damage ? Blunt has been associated to things that “slice” other things. Why ogre has it ? Skull Tower when throw bombs and bomb explodes itself, it damage “slicing” troops so i can accept that, but ogre should have normal damage, because it hit “normally objects/units” it doesn’t make explosion to them like skull towers or bomb, why it has been associated to blunt ? But maybe Ogre is more near the “real life” stats since it has the slowness on attack, it’s slowness on walking etc

I wanna say that lot of things are abnormal but everything has been projected to not be one overpower than other, so this why for example of your critic on werewolf they have weakness of ice… but yes they put this kind of weakness like they put poison weakness on archer both doesn’t make sense but are something essential to create equality into game.

Not everything can be earth to earth since it’s only a game that simulates some process like catapults, arrow towers and similar things so of course we can’t complain for each single wrong thing there is in the game.

 

About decrease the morale points of werewolf to 3-5 morale points seems not calculated consciusly this thing, there will be lot of side effects which can create especially for lower rank players, werewolf is useful for its “Howl effect” more than its attack that i would say useless against groups of units but good against 1 vs 1 and since it’s a suicide stay alone during raids so you stay rarely alone during raids, werewolf is more used for its howl that buff everything around for lot of range and is used even more if it is boosted. And if some players could have the chance to get elite werewolf spawning it with only 3-5 morale points they could win also (i don’t say mid-high people) but we are near to this consideration…for the fact that buff effect help a lot on defence and attack properties.