• Announcements

    • Alysea

      Discord Server   09/28/2016

      Hello everyone, We now have a Discord Server for Royal Revolt 2! You can head out here to join us! Please note that this is not a support channel and it is not an official channel. If you need to contact the support, please go here: http://support.flaregames.com
LacunaC

ANOTHER way to balance out gate towers

Recommended Posts

9 minutes ago, LacunaC said:

"During war, attacking the top 5 players without scrolls or revive entitles you to gain bonus skulls on remaining time left, at a ratio of 1 additional skull per second. Outside of war, bonuses are applied to any raids, regardless of whether scrolls or revives are used, at a ratio of 0.5% extra gold and xp per second left in the raid."

 

Not to hard to understand eh? =)

top 5 current? or top 5 start of war? will be open to abuse pumping up weaker base to get more skulls if current. And a hassle if its start of war, where active players with weaker bases might be higher than the stronger guys that don't care to raise trophy. Manually select 5? then more complexity needed to add to the game etc etc.

not to mention, how complicated it will be to pick your target. pretty hard to work out which base will give more skulls, how much more, to just rush leave gate towers up, try take them down. Say you are at gate, 3 towers up, I won't find it fun having to decide whether to just go for the gate or kill the towers for more skulls.

its too complex :X
if they are really wanting to remove gate towers then there are simpler solutions.
if you want something to combat LB issues, change the LB, don't complicate with this. Probably better not to get me started on LB issues here :P but I would say that given the only benefit of the new LB rules is give chance for lower alliances vs top 120 fief ones, it kind of defeats the purpose to then put something in that makes it harder again for the lower alliances. If the LB is too strong, just adjust those values, don't make things so complicated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Fourofjacks said:

top 5 current? or top 5 start of war? will be open to abuse pumping up weaker base to get more skulls if current. And a hassle if its start of war, where active players with weaker bases might be higher than the stronger guys that don't care to raise trophy. Manually select 5? then more complexity needed to add to the game etc etc.

not to mention, how complicated it will be to pick your target. pretty hard to work out which base will give more skulls, how much more, to just rush leave gate towers up, try take them down. Say you are at gate, 3 towers up, I won't find it fun having to decide whether to just go for the gate or kill the towers for more skulls.

its too complex :X
if they are really wanting to remove gate towers then there are simpler solutions.
if you want something to combat LB issues, change the LB, don't complicate with this. Probably better not to get me started on LB issues here :P but I would say that given the only benefit of the new LB rules is give chance for lower alliances vs top 120 fief ones, it kind of defeats the purpose to then put something in that makes it harder again for the lower alliances. If the LB is too strong, just adjust those values, don't make things so complicated.

 

First and foremost, complexity involved in understanding the game should be distinguished from mastering the game.

 

Understanding the new proposed system is actually a very simple one. Finding out those little minute details of "what if" takes time but these things are inherent in all games, including RR2. For example, it is extremely simple for a player to learn about the new "pal" system. However, it takes time for a player to learn about all the minute details about the pal system which will not hinder the enjoyment of the game (for example, some experienced players I know just figured out that in the pal system, pals and even defensive beasts get stronger as you level up).

 

To address your specific example of a minute detail, top 5 can be manually picked, failing which, the default top 5 at the start of the war will be selected. IF a player doesn't understand at first, he will do so most probably after going through just one war. An emblem can be given to these top 5, which will represent the top 5 best defenses in the team. Players will definitely be happy to have such recognition for their effort in improving their defenses.

 

I know there are plenty more minute details, but those can slowly be ironed out. I can even give examples of them, such as what if one of the "top 5" drops out of war, or how the system can co-exist with the "war shield" etc etc.

 

As to "mastering the game", complexities are actually welcomed. The complexity involved in determining which base will give you more skulls is a complexity that adds diversity and depth to strategy. I honestly believe most players will have no qualms for such complexities as long as the basic concept is easy to comprehend.

 

As to your last point, it isn't just about addressing LB issue. It provides meaningful layers to having a good defense, as mentioned in the first post here, that even if player A and player B bases got destroyed, there will be something to "reward" the one with better defense nonetheless.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Fourofjacks said:

totally disagree. Without heal ring (heavily forged) (bomb kick to certain extent) which many do not have, defense is already decently strong. Take away ceres / aska (maybe irmgard) as well then defense is strong. Not everyone has access to these, if you do a blanket def upgrade these guys already having trouble will have even more trouble. Its going to cause backlash, but balance wise the best solution is to nerf these overpowered items / pals same as they did for toxic cloud slowdown. Its fine to have stronger items, but these are too much stronger than the rest. Other option is to make them more readily available, or other really strong items / pals that are easy to get. You shouldn't balance def / offense based overpowered items.

Its almost like trying to get cromka to view things from lower alliance point of view, but you need to consider the majority of players that do not heavily trophy dump. Making defenses so strong you can't beat anyone around your rating, and that they give little gold when they do, will drive away players in droves. It is not fun to play if you cannot win battles, and cannot get gold to upgrade stuff.

We saw a glimpse of this with the original FBT pro boost, where defenses were overpowered with it, the game was not fun for many. Most players do not want def so strong they have to rely on scrolling to beat every base.

I see I made a terrible mistake in my previous post, I meant I hoped flare doesn't add more boosts as solution. and that I am afraid is their solution, or nerf stuff once again. I was typing, got distracted by a customer in trouble, went back to my response after helping him and already seem to have posted it. But ok, I won't edit my post, my mistake. 

And who introduced these overpowered pals, items and so on? Isn't that flare, due to their greed. They introduce very strong pals for example and everyone wants to have it. The staff rubs in their hands and see the cash flow into their pockets, not realizing they literally make offense overpowered. And no, this will not change by adding very strong defensive beasts when some combinations neutralize damage effects or even neutralize what is thrown at offense. 

It's flare who is responsible for this, so please aim your arrows at them, not at forum members who try their best to change the tide. I already told long before the introduction of kickback aura ring that implementing kickback feature would be a terrible mistake. A player suggested kickback aura boots, they introduced a ring and it was not overpowered, according to them. 

And what do we see this season? A good example of it's true power. Bases with triple boosted bomb towers plus many skull towers launch a tropical storm of projectiles, that in normal cases everyone but a few are able to survive and at least should have decimated the army. But just having that ring is enough to let majority of players beat those bases. Who is to blame for this overpowered feature that neutralizes the incoming projectiles? The player who got that ring or the one that introduced the ring? There is only one correct conclusion to draw here.

And we can combine some lately introduced things to get an overpowered offense. How about heavily forged heal ring in combination with Ceres? Ceres creates new troops, heal ring cancels any lasting damage to hero and troops and restores full health. We can now take a shower under snake towers, while before without shield it meant hero was in serious trouble. An almost unstoppable army, unless you face a lot of skull towers plus boosted bomb towers. But wait... for that we just need kickback aura ;) to survive. Then we take another pal like panda or Aska (if we have it) and again an overpowered combo against other kind of bases. Making these abnormal strong offensive combinations possible, makes it hard to build very strong defenses that can stop majority of raiders. Nerf and more tower levels however are the only solutions so far I ever saw. 

At the moment players with only strong gate towers get more gems by scrolls than players that seriously work on their base without having gate towers. Who deserves more gems by scrolling would you say? I vote for players investing a lot of time and gold in their base that bring me into deep trouble and definitely not the ones who just focus on highly forged gate towers in gate area. That's something that's seriously wrong right now. 

If you like to play games where you mainly can win, I seriously recommend you to install Dora or hello kitty games, there you are guaranteed to win every time you play. That you think that every base must be beatable for a huge range of players is also totally incorrect and should be out of the question. Everyone should lose every now and then against some bases, it's as simple as that. Investing in defense should reward players, investing in gate towers should not be rewarded at all. 

Flare did already do a great job by preventing that only having gate towers is rewarded (previously we got 65% instead of 99% when there were just 2 gate towers). But now it's time to do something about all those gate towers that force us to use spells (hammer or sonic plus heavily forged on damage) to be able to knock down gate towers, while we not really need them during the rest of the raid. 

I realize that bases of top players in top teams will be hard to defeat when defense gets overpowered or more strong. Flare should not keep introducing overpowered items, pals and so on. They are the only reason why offense is overpowered. And when your defense can be beaten by a lot of players, it's logical that players start to use gate tower strategy. 

You totally disagree with a lot of persons lately. Sorry to say, but you seem to search for confrontations a lot. 

Edited by Dena4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, LacunaC said:

First and foremost, complexity involved in understanding the game should be distinguished from mastering the game.

 

Understanding the new proposed system is actually a very simple one. Finding out those little minute details of "what if" takes time but these things are inherent in all games, including RR2. For example, it is extremely simple for a player to learn about the new "pal" system. However, it takes time for a player to learn about all the minute details about the pal system which will not hinder the enjoyment of the game (for example, some experienced players I know just figured out that in the pal system, pals and even defensive beasts get stronger as you level up).

The difference here is that you can learn and find out how the pal system works, how the values work, how decide what is best. With your proposal, it is practical impossible to figure it what is the best thing to do even if you understand the how it works. Its complex in a bad way, such that it basically turns into a lottery. People will not know what they should do, they will just end up having to be random.

For example, under your suggestion, go look at the top 5 VL members, let me know which one will give you the most skulls, using which strategy (eg try ot defeat all towers, or go for bonus). How can you work it out? or will you just try your luck? its impossible, and in no way fun.

Theres good complexity thats fun, eg designing your base layout, getting your best attack combo.
And theres bad complexity. Eg the trophy system, ppl understand it to a point, but no one bothers trying to understand all of it. Trying to work out how to max skulls in your suggestion. I doubt many will find fun at all.

edit: adding in the more obvious 'bad' complexity being gate towers that is the source of this thread :)  

Edited by Fourofjacks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Dena4 said:

And who introduced these overpowered pals, items and so on? Isn't that flare, due to their greed. They introduce very strong pals for example and everyone wants to have it. The staff rubs in their hands and see the cash flow into their pockets, not realizing they literally make offense overpowered. And no, this will not change by adding very strong defensive beasts when some combinations neutralize damage effects or even neutralize what is thrown at offense. 

It's flare who is responsible for this, so please aim your arrows at them, not at forum members who try their best to change the tide. I already told long before the introduction of kickback aura ring that implementing kickback feature would be a terrible mistake. A player suggested kickback aura boots, they introduced a ring and it was not overpowered, according to them. 

there is no arrows here, I may be too blunt for some who get offended easily, but that is another story. If you see above my reply to yours, i have also replied to FTB (flare) similar things as to you. That they introduced new items is normal part of games, that it is overpowered is easily fixed, they can reduce the range. It isn't easy to always get the balance right. By my understanding, bomb kick is not as strong as the heal ring.

that you use bomb kick in heavy bomb / skull tower bases, or heal ring for heavy snake tower base is fine to me. RR2 will be like that, if the defense heavily specialises in one thing, the attacker can choose spell / units / item setup that beats it best. defended can choose to go that way, or go half half.

7 hours ago, Dena4 said:

At the moment players with only strong gate towers get more gems by scrolls than players that seriously work on their base without having gate towers. Who deserves more gems by scrolling would you say? I vote for players investing a lot of time and gold in their base that bring me into deep trouble and definitely not the ones who just focus on highly forged gate towers in gate area. That's something that's seriously wrong right now. 

lets consider players who have not had time to upgrade and make all their towers strong yet. The best strategy there (imho) was to find some choke point / u-turn and put all my really strong towers there. Who should be rewarded, those who are smart enough to figure this strategy out? or those who spread out and upgrade towers "equally" for a much weaker defense? In this case, i have no issue with players being rewarded for being smart about placing strong towers together in choke point, same as I dont have issue rewarding those putting in gate area.

Then we consider the stronger / higher players, firstly the above still applies, you concentrate all your best towers at one spot. secondly, to make the best out of the gate tower strategy, you still need to upgrade the rest of your base to give attackers trouble. At least for me, i find a big difference in bases loading up towers at the gate, the good ones give you limited time a the gate area, weak ones you arrive at gate much easier.

in any case it seems like you agree that there are a few really strong / overpowered items causing imbalance, which I have posted the same. Then as I say the better solution IMO is to nerf these, not to increase defense power overall.

The separate issue regarging whether gate towers is good for the game or not, I do not think so, but that it is in the game doesn't bother me much, i see the good and bad side of it. My main concern as I have raised previously is that the solution be kept straightforward as possible.

7 hours ago, Dena4 said:

if you like to play games where you mainly can win, I seriously recommend you to install Dora or hello kitty games, there you are guaranteed to win every time you play. That you think that every base must be beatable for a huge range of players is also totally incorrect and should be out of the question.

As in my reply to you, you should be able to beat bases around your rating, ie. beat yourself. And do it pretty much all the time (with strong gear) and more difficult, can't do major mistakes in war gear. I have also said the game is currently geared towards getting gold by beating higher ranked opponents, if defense is to change so it is hard to beat higher guys, the gold rewards need to change so you can get decent gold in bases you can beat. I have also suggested nerfing the few overpowered items / combos to nerf offense. I'm not sure where I have written that every base should be beatable for wide range of players, but I can assure you thats not what I think at all.

7 hours ago, Dena4 said:

You totally disagree with a lot of persons lately. Sorry to say, but you seem to search for confrontations a lot. 

totally agree i disagree with a lot of people. Sorry to remind you again, but I don't get worked up in disagreement, speaking my mind when i see something I don't agree with. Obviously most people get upset when people disagree with them, that is not me. I will happily respond back, and if I am proven wrong, no problem.

Of course there are times when I do have my fun and wind people up, I admit that freely too. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have 2 solutions to face up to this problem about gate towers:

-improving "doom gate" war boost in terms of health;

-add the possibility to forge the "gate" (1st perk->higher health, 2nd perk->higher damage, 3rd perk->lower weaknesses).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, REVOLTROYAL said:

I have 2 solutions to face up to this problem about gate towers:

-improving "doom gate" war boost in terms of health;

-add the possibility to forge the "gate" (1st perk->higher health, 2nd perk->higher damage, 3rd perk->lower weaknesses).

Those who place gate towers just won't forge the gate. It reduces the odds that gate goes first. So nobody will forge it. Better option is to let raiders decide what troops focus on first. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Fourofjacks said:

there is no arrows here, I may be too blunt for some who get offended easily, but that is another story. If you see above my reply to yours, i have also replied to FTB (flare) similar things as to you. That they introduced new items is normal part of games, that it is overpowered is easily fixed, they can reduce the range. It isn't easy to always get the balance right. By my understanding, bomb kick is not as strong as the heal ring.

that you use bomb kick in heavy bomb / skull tower bases, or heal ring for heavy snake tower base is fine to me. RR2 will be like that, if the defense heavily specialises in one thing, the attacker can choose spell / units / item setup that beats it best. defended can choose to go that way, or go half half.

lets consider players who have not had time to upgrade and make all their towers strong yet. The best strategy there (imho) was to find some choke point / u-turn and put all my really strong towers there. Who should be rewarded, those who are smart enough to figure this strategy out? or those who spread out and upgrade towers "equally" for a much weaker defense? In this case, i have no issue with players being rewarded for being smart about placing strong towers together in choke point, same as I dont have issue rewarding those putting in gate area.

Then we consider the stronger / higher players, firstly the above still applies, you concentrate all your best towers at one spot. secondly, to make the best out of the gate tower strategy, you still need to upgrade the rest of your base to give attackers trouble. At least for me, i find a big difference in bases loading up towers at the gate, the good ones give you limited time a the gate area, weak ones you arrive at gate much easier.

in any case it seems like you agree that there are a few really strong / overpowered items causing imbalance, which I have posted the same. Then as I say the better solution IMO is to nerf these, not to increase defense power overall.

The separate issue regarging whether gate towers is good for the game or not, I do not think so, but that it is in the game doesn't bother me much, i see the good and bad side of it. My main concern as I have raised previously is that the solution be kept straightforward as possible.

As in my reply to you, you should be able to beat bases around your rating, ie. beat yourself. And do it pretty much all the time (with strong gear) and more difficult, can't do major mistakes in war gear. I have also said the game is currently geared towards getting gold by beating higher ranked opponents, if defense is to change so it is hard to beat higher guys, the gold rewards need to change so you can get decent gold in bases you can beat. I have also suggested nerfing the few overpowered items / combos to nerf offense. I'm not sure where I have written that every base should be beatable for wide range of players, but I can assure you thats not what I think at all.

totally agree i disagree with a lot of people. Sorry to remind you again, but I don't get worked up in disagreement, speaking my mind when i see something I don't agree with. Obviously most people get upset when people disagree with them, that is not me. I will happily respond back, and if I am proven wrong, no problem.

Of course there are times when I do have my fun and wind people up, I admit that freely too. 

You should go into politics. I only don't know if you are allowed to become one in Australia. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the only problem I have with gate tower is during Ninja Event. for the first Islands 1 to 20 the gate have so much low HP. and the towers are on side of the gate. Same If I am alone without no troops I can risk to destroy the gate in 1 shot. So I try to forge my range for Hammerstike and Firestorm to destroy them in middle and not be too much close of the gate

If the pal can have a ON/OFF button can be more easy to deal with Gate Tower. Without pal Ninja Event can be more easy. Same during a raid without pals can be more easy. The pals destroy the gate too fast

Really hope to see in 4.0 a option to remove pals.

Edited by Warriornator

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Warriornator said:

the only problem I have with gate tower is during Ninja Event. for the first Islands 1 to 20 the gate have so much low HP. and the towers are on side of the gate. Same If I am alone without no troops I can risk to destroy the gate in 1 shot. So I try to forge my range for Hammerstike and Firestorm to destroy them in middle and not be too much close of the gate

If the pal can have a ON/OFF button can be more easy to deal with Gate Tower. Without pal Ninja Event can be more easy. Same during a raid without pals can be more easy. The pals destroy the gate too fast

Really hope to see in 4.0 a option to remove pals.

You can increase your speed and outrun that pal. I usually wait for a wave to come out to keep that animal from killing gates. I left option B open on the gear setups just for that reason. It would be nice to have that ON/OFF button like a million other things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Dena4 said:

You should go into politics. I only don't know if you are allowed to become one in Australia. 

no thanks :P

Maybe try not post while you are angry. Just as IRL, you make more mistakes and say more things you don't mean when angry.

And no need to take it personal if people don't agree with you. I have disagreed with a Lacuna's suggestions, but he also rubbishes and pokes holes in my suggestions which I have no issue with. I assume he is not taking it personally, since privately I ask him for help / advice and he has always been happy to provide it - which I am grateful for. I assume (hope) this same discussion will go on in flare, where they have suggestions, and they try to poke holes / see how different ideas might not work.

That being said, it is a problem when people have misguided / un-informed / illogical views, they need to be corrected. As opposed to my disagreement with Lacuna's suggestion here, I can see reason behind it, the logic is there, but there is a difference in opinion where I think it is too complicated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Fourofjacks said:

no thanks :P

Maybe try not post while you are angry. Just as IRL, you make more mistakes and say more things you don't mean when angry.

And no need to take it personal if people don't agree with you. I have disagreed with a Lacuna's suggestions, but he also rubbishes and pokes holes in my suggestions which I have no issue with. I assume he is not taking it personally, since privately I ask him for help / advice and he has always been happy to provide it - which I am grateful for. I assume (hope) this same discussion will go on in flare, where they have suggestions, and they try to poke holes / see how different ideas might not work.

That being said, it is a problem when people have misguided / un-informed / illogical views, they need to be corrected. As opposed to my disagreement with Lacuna's suggestion here, I can see reason behind it, the logic is there, but there is a difference in opinion where I think it is too complicated.

And why you draw the incorrect conclusion? You seem to have a glass sphere, since you seem to know my mood. Or was it just guessing? I am not angry at all, so it was a wild guess. Maybe you are the one who is upset and can't stand any critical notes and that's the reason why you respond the way you do. 

You should learn to respect other persons their opinion every now and then even when you disagree. It's pretty easy to burn someone literally to the ground, but explaining things in a good way, with keeping respect towards others isn't easy. 

But you just keep going on to the extreme to proof you are correct (or others are not) and take everything written literally, without seeing it in the right context by quoting parts of text written by others and start to hammer on that part with intention to convince them that they said something which isn't really the case. 

Now a simple question (and now I am laying words in your mouth). What is main reason why players put towers near gate? Since that it's allowed and part of strategy? Yes, but do you have other options?

Is the reason that some combinations raiders use are overpowered? So they have no other option and gate towers are their only solution?  Reason is that many players just place them there, since others also do. Humans are copy cats, they see top players do something and even without knowing the reason, they do exactly the same. Even a lot of low level hero players start to put them near the gate. And they definitely can improve their bases a lot. So why they put them there, just improve your defense by upgrading towers, waves and obstacles instead. 

Some place them, because their team tells them to do so. Some indeed put them there, just not to lose 100%, during war season it prevents 100% defeat, other place them there, because then they only have to invest time in maxing and forging a few towers. There are many reasons. 

I don't have any problem with players putting gate towers, but give players alternate options to get rid of them, when there is plenty of time left. Now the only option is to have a very well forged hammer or sonic spell at your arsenal, have forged them on damage to the extreme and use items with perks for that spell to take out towers in one shot. For the rest of the raid that spell isn't very useful, but when you want to score 100%, you have to use it. Pretty weird isn't it? Objective of the game was to break the gate.

You should have played when there were no boosts, alliances and cetera. Nobody even was putting a tower there and that was for a good reason.

Nowadays the strategy seems to be to put those towers on both sides, so that you need to run forward (just place a barricade or blockade just before the gate area to make running forward more hard), hope the gate, towers plus defending troops don't kill the solo hero, take one side out, retreat and then go for other side of the gate and hope your huge army didn't take out the gate already, since major part ignores the hero scream. To make it worse, don't hope that there is also a basilisk with head in the ground that first want to strike twice, before popping up. Wow... I am impressed, that's defending strategy... The base is a walk in the park, since we have plenty of time left, but since the army destroys the army too soon, we don't score 100%.

I have more respect for players not putting towers there that try to prevent breaking the gate. Sure... often they see 100% against their base, but also quite often that players failed. What's the better strategy, depends on where the player resides. At low/medium level, there is no need to place gate towers. Not everyone is able to beat your base. So why place gate towers? It gives a better feeling seeing someone failing, instead of someone scoring 98-99%. 

Obviously the defender failed to do part of this tower defense game and that is defending, why otherwise we arrive there with plenty of time remaining? The time stops after destroying the gate and the raid ends there. Maybe that's just not correct, let timer go on and only stop when the remaining time is lower than x seconds (when gate is destroyed). Or maybe it's not smart to let players put gate towers there, I will leave it in the middle to prevent another endless discussion.

Fact is, some only place very strong gate towers with intention just to prevent a score of 100%, while their base is far from impressive. Goal of defender should be to prevent breaking the gate. Sure... Flare can balance the overpowered features by nerfing them a lot. That's what they are good at, nerfing. For example adjust range of kickback bomb aura ring or only kick back a max number of projectiles per second. Heal ring with Ceres combo is also overpowered. Heal ring neutralizes all lasting effects of damage, so that could also be weakened. Only... Hell will break lose when flare will nerf the overpowered combos. We saw what happened after the toxic cloud adjustment. Players spend a lot of time and (some even spend cash) energy to get an item/spell/troop/pal improved to get advantage as others also have, then suddenly within a next sub release or server upgrade, this completely became a waste of time. 

So search for other options, like a stronger defense is a better option. Players will always complain, whatever flare changes in any way. Just check the critical notes on bladestorm. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

we need a balance! my trophies from 5200 dropped to 4500 ... any player passes my base, in my history of attacks there is not a single successful defense :) and it's easy for me too pass any bases. top spells now bladestorm/shield/toxic/

@FTB how soon will the rebalance be? :)

 

Edited by Invizzzible

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Dena4 said:

And why you draw the incorrect conclusion? You seem to have a glass sphere, since you seem to know my mood. Or was it just guessing? I am not angry at all, so it was a wild guess. Maybe you are the one who is upset and can't stand any critical notes and that's the reason why you respond the way you do. 

You should learn to respect other persons their opinion every now and then even when you disagree. It's pretty easy to burn someone literally to the ground, but explaining things in a good way, with keeping respect towards others isn't easy. 

But you just keep going on to the extreme to proof you are correct (or others are not) and take everything written literally, without seeing it in the right context by quoting parts of text written by others and start to hammer on that part with intention to convince them that they said something which isn't really the case. 

Correct, was just guessing, since it seemed like you were wound up from my post again and miss stuff I have already said. I wouldn't have to rebut half your posts to me if you just read what I wrote (as in literally, no other hidden side meanings).

Now I could be misinterpreting most of your long post, or out of context. But it seems like the overall message is that you are trying to show me why gate towers are not good. Have I got this correct? or is there some other meaning? because I agree with you, I have said that multiple times I don't think they should be in the game, for many of the same reasons you say. Only caveat is that I can also see the positives to having gate towers so I am not fussed that it is in the game.

There are of course other things I think are not quite right with your post, but I suspect at this point you want me to respect your opinion, but do not want me post my own opinion in reply.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Fourofjacks said:

Correct, was just guessing, since it seemed like you were wound up from my post again and miss stuff I have already said. I wouldn't have to rebut half your posts to me if you just read what I wrote (as in literally, no other hidden side meanings).

Now I could be misinterpreting most of your long post, or out of context. But it seems like the overall message is that you are trying to show me why gate towers are not good. Have I got this correct? or is there some other meaning? because I agree with you, I have said that multiple times I don't think they should be in the game, for many of the same reasons you say. Only caveat is that I can also see the positives to having gate towers so I am not fussed that it is in the game.

There are of course other things I think are not quite right with your post, but I suspect at this point you want me to respect your opinion, but do not want me post my own opinion in reply.

 

Correct, gate towers are not good the way it is now.  We need some change, but it's up to flare. I only try to point out why they aren't good right now. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Invizzzible said:

we need a balance! my trophies from 5200 dropped to 4500 ... any player passes my base, in my history of attacks there is not a single successful defense :) and it's easy for me too pass any bases. top spells now bladestorm/shield/toxic/

@FTB how soon will the rebalance be? :)

 

I do not think this rebalance is going to help you. They are talking about making the defense weaker. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You all crack me up. Just remember that you all asked for this crap idea of taking towers away from gate area to help those who have not bothered to gain the skill to take towers down. Like most people here proclaim with certainty. This is a TOWER DEFENSE game!!!!!!!!!!!! ........ or is IT?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Dena4 said:

Correct, gate towers are not good the way it is now.  We need some change, but it's up to flare. I only try to point out why they aren't good right now. 

Great, was there anything else in my posts that you want to elaborate on? anything else you found incorrect had different opinion given this was only a small part of them.

And because you are all about respecting opinions you disagree with, and you may well already understand all these good reasons for having gate towers so I wont bore you with details, but let me know if you would like me to elaborate.

Eg:

- they make defense stronger.
- give more options for strategy / layout on defense
- give more varied spell / unit setup in and out of war.
- reward attackers who are skilled in gameplay / setup to beat gate towers.
- reward attackers who spend the time and effort to upgrade and make strong multiple spells.

Also my opinion gate towers aren't even the best way to reduce skulls in war, I argued against making everyone put gate towers in LBF.

Given there are many good reasons to gate towers, personally I would prefer flare spend their time on other issues. Or stick with some simple change, eg just not allowing tower in that area, reduce gate area to single tile (turn it into a drawbridge) so units will attack towers more readily.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Fourofjacks said:

Great, was there anything else in my posts that you want to elaborate on? anything else you found incorrect had different opinion given this was only a small part of them. I know you are adult, so start acting like one. You just keep repeating yourself.

And because you are all about respecting opinions you disagree with, and you may well already understand all these good reasons for having gate towers so I wont bore you with details, but let me know if you would like me to elaborate.

Eg:

- they make defense stronger. In fact it's the opposite, they make defense weaker. Can you agree that towers placed outside gate area cost the raider time, so in fact raiders arrive later at gate area or are killed by them. If you say no, why you place towers outside gate area at all? At least 6 of the 16 should be placed at gate area if you believe that. And with only 10 gate towers outside, the odds to kill or slow down you lower to 62.5% (=>10/16).  
- give more options for strategy / layout on defense. Agreed.
- give more varied spell / unit setup in and out of war. And why? just because offense is overpowered (or some combinations are), otherwise there was no need for those gate towers. When the odds of failure breaking the gate increase by a few percent (not like now that 95%+ of the raids against bases result in breaking the gate) there is no need to have them at all. Better to prevent some raiders from beating your base then to give 99% of the raiders 99%. It's that flare isn't crazy to kill their revenue, otherwise not allowing scrolls and resurrections would be a simple solution.  
- reward attackers who are skilled in gameplay / setup to beat gate towers. Well yeah, 1% extra score you call skilled. Think again. a player good in scrolling can also be called skilled. Only... why would we reward a player for 1% extra, where only gate towers are strong and the rest of the base is a walk in the park? Players with fantastic defenses should be rewarded, not the gate tower denfenses.
- reward attackers who spend the time and effort to upgrade and make strong multiple spells. So forging a spell like hammer and sonic endless on damage, cool down is required to reward the raiders. I know you know how long it takes to forge those stats to the extreme. Without blacksmith event it takes close to 2 years to forge those stats 50+ times, unless you are a payer and skip cool downs. You approach it from the incorrect direction. A defender is rewarded for putting towers there and only putting time and energy in strengthening max 6 towers, while he should pay attention to 16 towers and also to defensive obstacles. For the record, players with extreme towers on rest of the path, I exclude from this. 

Also my opinion gate towers aren't even the best way to reduce skulls in war, I argued against making everyone put gate towers in LBF. That is good, my team also doesn't promote gate towers, but we have a different reason, which you also don't like. We dump trophies and make our bases look like easy targets, a player raids and then a lot of them fail miserably during war season. that's a strategy to protect our weaker members and making opponents score less. 

Given there are many good reasons to gate towers, personally I would prefer flare spend their time on other issues. Or stick with some simple change, eg just not allowing tower in that area, reduce gate area to single tile (turn it into a drawbridge) so units will attack towers more readily. I like this suggestion, but I prefer an option to give raiders the choice what troops will focus on first. And I bet 99% will chose to raid towers first, even when that means that there is a chance to lose the raid. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Dena4 so did you want me to elaborate? and explain? you did not say specifically.
usually when people reply like you do, i get the general idea they want me to rebut, but when I do, you seem to keep telling me I shouldn't.

Or is this again where you just want to post your opinion and not mine again?

I guess this is how adults act? do as I say not as I do?

Edited by Fourofjacks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am reading your posts right now again @Fourofjacks just to comfort you. 

I agree that the fix of just placing two gate towers a couple of months ago is a good start. But that's no contribution to the solution of gate towers, it is already part of the game.

You also say that they need to hold reckon with the fact that not everyone has access to certain combos and heavily forged items. So you mean they should just let players who have those combinations win? I know you don't mean that, so I also don't make it ridiculous.

I still see a lot of players with hero level 100+ fail at my base. Reason is that they don't have access to all the boosts and that their boosts aren't maxed or they just aren't experienced raiding stronger bases or did not forge troops and spells enough. I will leave the reason total in the middle.

Should we adapt the boost strength of the raider to defense, I would say no, the alliance spend a lot of gold to get those boosts to that level. Maybe the solution is to make defensive boosts somewhat stronger, but that's up to flare. I doubt it will even help to prevent gate towers, since there are a lot of layers out there that only invest in gate towers.

That gold must be improved to raid stronger defenses is correct, defenses should not be overpowered, so that almost nobody can win (or get gold). It's indeed not funny to raid and lose time after time. That scenario a lot of players that don't have access to strongest boost eventually will face, when they have too many trophies. Bases with gold are suicidal, other bases give no gold. that's indeed not good. Still this is no contribution how to prevent gate towers. 

Stronger defenses (not completely insane stronger) that make at least more players fail will at least remove a part of the gate towers. especially for alliances not on top. When a lot of players start to tell that suddenly a lot of players aren't able to beat their base and they don't use gate towers, because they invested in upgrading/maxing/ forging defensive structures, I think more players will invest in their defense. Is it the solution? definitely not, but maybe there is not one simple solution. 

Sure, the gate towers also make sure that players don't use same combo of spells all the time, but do we really need gate towers? It only makes us exchange one of the spells by hammer or sonic. Then we raid also with same combination (at least during war season), with hammer or sonic included against those gate tower bases. 

Now I put main part of your suggestions here, I excluded the discussion of giving extra skulls (or rewards) for time left when breaking the gate. Where is your solution for the gate towers? Yep, there seems to be none. 

You keep talking about rebutting, that's only on your own mind, not mine. It's pretty easy to burn forum members to the ground, the way you do. I prefer not to do this. Do you have the slightest clue what a forum is? It's not a place to start hammering on every reaction that isn't representing your thoughts. It's a place to discuss things. That you don't like some things or don't share same thoughts, fine. But you totally try to virtually attack people by placing things out of context, by quoting just half parts of text, ripping it totally out of context and even worse, you assume that people mean A while in fact they mean B. Communication is a kind of mist, you never know what a person means, unless you verify it by asking a question that confirms exactly that.  You seem to be good at trying to convince others that they are completely wrong, unfortunately that doesn't work against me.

Before you use your glass sphere again, my advice is to buy a new one, because the current one constantly is showing incorrect results. You just think what others mean, but in fact you have not the slightest clue. No, I don't need details, I don't have the intention to kick your behind. 

My main problem is that I let drag myself away a lot and just keep typing. that's why my reactions are way too long. 

Edited by Dena4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Dena4 If I am rewriting and repeating the same thing, it is because you (others) seem to keep missing things. As i mentioned, most of your replies you wouldn't need if you read my posts properly.

6 minutes ago, Dena4 said:

You also say that they need to hold reckon with the fact that not everyone has access to certain combos and heavily forged items. So you mean they should just let players who have those combinations win? I know you don't mean that, so I also don't make it ridiculous.

As I have written. Those certain combo's and heavily forged items need nerf. This is pretty standard way across games, if something is overpowered, nerf that - not boost everything else.

11 minutes ago, Dena4 said:

Now I put main part of your suggestions here, I excluded the discussion of giving extra skulls (or rewards) for time left when breaking the gate. Where is your solution for the gate towers? Yep, there seems to be none.

I wrote two suggestions literally in the post above. And you posted in your previous post above that you liked the suggestion.

1 hour ago, Dena4 said:

That is good, my team also doesn't promote gate towers, but we have a different reason, which you also don't like. We dump trophies and make our bases look like easy targets, a player raids and then a lot of them fail miserably during war season. that's a strategy to protect our weaker members and making opponents score less. 

I have mentioned to you here, and on discord many times, I dumped trophy heavily for months (first 10 of 13months I have played this game) to get gold easily. I also stayed and took out towers doing this to attract attacks during wars. I recommend this to friends and alliances members freely. I don't bother mentioning this replying to you anymore, because no matter how many times I say it, you can never remember. Instead you keep having it in your head I don't like it / don't agree with it.

The bit you are probably remembering, (but maybe cannot understand) is that while I think its fine for people to do this, and did it myself - I can see it is not good for the game. ie. firstly if everyone does it no one wins. secondly, the rating system is meant to let people have fun fighting roughly equal strength opponents. Yes if you do it it benefits you greatly, but I'm well aware doing it ruins other peoples fun in war, in festival raids. Down it the sub 3k rating - probably ruining peoples enjoyment of the game. Casual players who probably do not have in depth knowledge of the game and don't understand why they are match up against monster bases they die at the tent.

If I am re-writing stuff and repeating stuff, its because people miss it the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, nth time around.
Before you talk about communication skills, respecting others point of view even if you disagree, take a look in the mirror.

Won't detail other errors in your post right now, since my glass sphere is broken I cannot tell accurately when you are wound up and not functioning properly. But I will give it some time and consider it another time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I gave you a few likes indeed. Not because I agreed with you, but anyway I decided that you earned a like, since that contribution was deserving one.

I don't lower myself to the way you are responding now (don't worry, I respect your response towards me), by writing in a context to make others look like fools or something similar. Please let's not lower ourselves to such levels and don't add such things to responses that could hurt other persons feelings (for the record, I am not hurt) . 

Like I said, communication is a form of mist, you assume that when you write A, that for anybody else also this is interpreted as A. That's incorrect, instead it can be B or even C, we hope it's A. Even if you wrote it down in a way you think there is only one possible interpretation, hold reckon with other interpretations (or even that the message is never transferred/received). 

Hey, let me take the first step and admit I am definitely to blame here in this part of the discussion. I let myself get carried away quite often and start to flush a topic with huge amounts of texts, giving the impression I have the wrong profession. I read the responses of others for sure, but sometimes ignore them totally. Why? I am just human (at least last time I checked in the mirror:blink:), of flesh and blood I am made and born to make mistakes (Human league song 

 

) Now to get back on topic. 

Sure... Certain combos should never be overpowered, even not when forged to the extreme, that's the theory. But reality is different, a lot of players are able to beat almost any base (not me, I lack experience to raid top bases and would fail miserably for sure) due to the use of overpowered combinations for whatever the reason might be. Flare should do something about that indeed, combinations can help to win raids, but they never should lead to make a lot of players win against any base, just because they use an overpowered feature.

We have seen the nerf of scream (100% of the time scream was possible), the paladin fix (they destroyed any base when wolf hypered them), the toxic cloud fix and maybe I forget to mention some other nerfs here. A lot of complaints were the result and Cromka was one of the few persons who reacted in a positive way to those nerfs. Before the fix, you only needed that combo and a win was almost guaranteed, after the nerf, only the skilled ones still were able to use it, the way it should be. So yes, I admit that a nerf can be a solution, it is up to flare however. 

@Fourofjacks, I have no problem with your trophy dumping in the past, I am admitting immediately that I am doing that already for a long time (you even didn't play the game when I started), to solve the gold issue. I now no longer need gold and I explained why I don't build new buildings from scratch, it might be not smart, but that's my decision. 

Please don't start to get problems with your conscience for hiding trophies in the past right now. Now you don't need to dump them any longer, since you can beat almost any base.

I accept/respect that you changed your mind and are totally against it. But since you also made use of it, please stop to become a moralist and tell us not to use this technique, because you realized from the start it's no good for the game. 

Same issue we have with gate towers (maybe you don't see it that way), its not good for the game (that's my opinion, maybe ) and for that reason I don't use them at all. Technically I have one skull tower on gate area, but that is targeted directly by ranged troops. I at least keep loyal to the things I stand for. 

So if you are against them, start preaching against the players who use them. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Dena4 said:

Please don't start to get problems with your conscience for hiding trophies in the past right now. Now you don't need to dump them any longer, since you can beat almost any base.

I accept/respect that you changed your mind and are totally against it. But since you also made use of it, please stop to become a moralist and tell us not to use this technique, because you realized from the start it's no good for the game. 

I have never changed my mind, I still not against people using it as I have said above and repeatedly. I still recommending people to do it if they need gold / want to. I have never asked you or anyone else to stop using the technique. That doesn't change the fact I can see it is not good for the game. Because I can beat any base is not the reason I stopped dumping trophies, when I first stopped dumping I could only attack maybe 4.5k rating players. My plan was to stop dumping trophies when I reached level 130, and that's what I did.

22 minutes ago, Dena4 said:

Same issue we have with gate towers (maybe you don't see it that way), its not good for the game (that's my opinion, maybe ) and for that reason I don't use them at all. Technically I have one skull tower on gate area, but that is targeted directly by ranged troops. I at least keep loyal to the things I stand for. 

With gate towers, the end reason I side with removing is similar, because I don't think it is good for the game. It boils down to that it is not a 'fun' way to attack - having much time left, forced to limited spell, a big army and not being able to kill the tower. etc. But that does not stop me seeing the good side of the gate towers, from the other point of view.

I practice and preach doing whatever you feel like, that the game allows. If you want to drop trophies to your advantage go ahead. If you want to put gate towers go ahead.

Consider your opposing stances on the two issues, both are (arguably) bad for the game, both are allowed by the game. But you are totally against one, but fine with the other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 16.04.2018 at 11:58 AM, OilFire said:

Good idea.

Any attack timer based feedback will be very valuable - even if it does not balance anything.

I remain amazed that this game does not have a 'replay' system of any sort, allowing you to see what the attacker did exactly. There's extremely little feedback coming back to you as the designer of your own base. Even something so 'insignificant' as Pet info is not displayed in the Attack History...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now