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Chris

community manager answered Practical Example of Superforging and Refinements

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Hey there,

I did a little bit of forging to show you what kind of items you can expect to craft.

I'm on Ascension Level 130 and started with the following Epic 1-Star items:

A regular cape with some Cooldown Bonus:

IMG_0313.jpg

I fully upgraded it to 5-Star Titan, superforging it by exclusively destroying 4-Star items (or 5-Star items when forging it on Titan level):

IMG_0316.jpg

This piece of body armor was cursed and has quite high Physical Resistance for a green item:

IMG_0314.jpg

Look at the Physical Resistance gained by superforging:

IMG_0318.jpg

And here some nice bracers which were also cursed, featuring Demolition:

IMG_0315.jpg

The Demolition Chance of this item would actually only be around 33k had I not superforged it:

IMG_0317.jpg


1st Refinement

So I decided to refine my body armor by destroying the Demolition bracers:

IMG_0319.jpg

As you can see, all the numbers are now quite low since the item is reduced to 1-Star Epic quality. But if you compare those values to the item when it was still Bronze you will notice that the Health has increased and the Physical Resistance went up to 19k before it was normalized. Adding a new perk caused both the Physical Resistance and the Demolition to get normalized to 50% of their strength.

IMG_0314.jpg ➡️ IMG_0320.jpg

This is what I got after superforging my shiny new armor to 5-Star Titan (Silver) and compare it to its Bronze equivalent:

IMG_0318.jpg➡️IMG_0321.jpg

2nd Refinement

Then I decided to put some Cooldown Bonus on it by dismantling that cape from the beginning:

IMG_0322.jpg

Health has gone up again. All perk values are normalized to 33%.

IMG_0320.jpg➡️IMG_0323.jpg

I really like the result after superforging my item once more to 5-Stars Titan (Gold):

IMG_0321.jpg➡️IMG_0324.jpg


Another Tip

The longer a perk is on an item the more often can it benefit from superforging.
In my case, the Physical Resistance got 3 full cycles of superforging, the Demolition got 2 cycles of superforging and the Cooldown Bonus got only one cycle of superforging. So it's up to you to decide which perk you value most and decide when you want to refine which item.


Forging a Unique Item

My Nemean Claws were already forged once but I didn't dismantle a very good item when doing it so I got some not-so-good Frostbite on it. Let's see what happens when I now dismantle my freshly forged super powerful body armor in order to boost my Claws:

IMG_0325.jpg

The Frostbite was replaced by rather high Physical Resistance and Cooldown Bonus. Also, look at that damage number!

IMG_0326.jpg

Video

I actually recorded the whole thing for you so feel free to waste 17 minutes of your life watching me forge my items:

 

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Where did the frostbite go on those claws?

And on the first item, the power shawl, what would the cooldown be if you used another 5* cooldown cape to refine? The item would refine to 1star silver green, but the perk would not be normalized, correct? Because you're not adding a 2nd perk?

What I'm getting at is: is it still possible to forge an item, like a cape, with very high levels of a single perk? 64k cooldown on a 5 star titan item is half of what was was possible under the old forging system.

Edited by dumpster

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4 minutes ago, dumpster said:

Where did the frostbite go on those claws?

It's gone. It was replaced because I dismantled a Gold item which adds 2 new perks to the item. Dismantling a Silver item adds 1 perk, dismantling a Gold item adds 2 perks. If no more perks can be added, the existing ones will be replaced.

4 minutes ago, dumpster said:

And on the first item, the power shawl, what would the cooldown be if you used another 5* cooldown cape to refine? The item would refine to 1star silver green, but the perk would not be normalized, correct? Because you're not adding a 2nd perk?

Refining always adds a new perk. Since items can't have duplicate perks, a new random perk is put on the item in this case. This would be a perk which can appear on the type of item you destroyed but I would still not recommend doing it since you don't know for sure what you will get. ;) 

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43 minutes ago, Chris said:

It's gone. It was replaced because I dismantled a Gold item which adds 2 new perks to the item. Dismantling a Silver item adds 1 perk, dismantling a Gold item adds 2 perks. If no more perks can be added, the existing ones will be replaced.

So is it random which perk would get over-written in that situation? Was there a chance of keeping frostbite?

Quote

Refining always adds a new perk. Since items can't have duplicate perks, a new random perk is put on the item in this case. This would be a perk which can appear on the type of item you destroyed but I would still not recommend doing it since you don't know for sure what you will get. ;) 

Can you please adjust the perk normalization ratios then? 50% and 75% is too low.

Alternately, could you make it so you have more control over the perks that get added, and if you use an identical item to refine a 5* titan, make it so it will just become a more powerful version of the same thing? It's not the easiest thing in the world to get identical items, which would make it a challenge. I would often rather have one powerful perk on an item than 2 weak ones.

Edited by dumpster

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10 minutes ago, Chris said:

Since items can't have duplicate perks, a new random perk is put on the item in this case.

So what I initially thought about Overarching is true:

On 6/26/2018 at 11:46 AM, Tomaxo said:

Overarching means trial and error/gambling?

 

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28 minutes ago, Tomaxo said:

Overarching means trial and error/gambling?

Or you can just dismantle an item which has a perk that is not already on the item you refine. In this case you will get this exact perk.

 

39 minutes ago, dumpster said:

Can you please adjust the perk normalization ratios then? 50% and 75% is too low.

Yeah no. Normalization is supposed to normalize the perks, not boost them. When an item has one perk and you add another perk to it, the strength of both must be halved to keep the same level of power. The overall power of both perks increases as you keep refining and superforging your item.

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20 minutes ago, Chris said:

Or you can just dismantle an item which has a perk that is not already on the item you refine. In this case you will get this exact perk.

 

Yeah no. Normalization is supposed to normalize the perks, not boost them. When an item has one perk and you add another perk to it, the strength of both must be halved to keep the same level of power. The overall power of both perks increases as you keep refining and superforging your item.

The boost rates are too low then. I’m not trying to be a dick, but it’s not right yet. 

Or it’s waaaaaaaaaaaay too expensive. 

Edited by dumpster

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Yeah it's very expensive in terms of gold!! Am gonna blow some, will prob have to stop building etc to do this, as for it to be worth it you need to get your perks and make them 5* titan all within the same ascension lvl. Forge your unique to current ascension lvl (10mil +5*titan)  Get your perks up to 5* titan lvl, as well as a base titan item( to 5*) to use as a transfer mechanism (if you don't want to leave it to chance) So to do that above your needing prob over 60 million for starters and about 500k books? 

got some perks this lvl which will be very useful.  On the + side all the attacking I've done yesterday for gold has raised my trophy count by 600 already!

 

Edited by Philstar

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Let me just soapbox a little more.

So you're paying millions of gold to get 2 items to 5* titan. Uber millions if you're boosting along the way.

Then you refine them, once again at great expense, to create one item with 3 perks, 2 of which will be 50% as strong as they used to be after you spend millions and millions of more gold to get them back to titan range.

So AT BEST you have as much utility as you did with a single high powered item (which is nowhere near as good as the items were under the old forging system), but in some situations 2 ponies =/= 1 horse. There are several perks which require a minimum threshold in order to be effective, so by adding 2 50% perks together you have less utility than 1 100% perk.

This is a swindle. Nobody should be buying what you're selling.

If the Normalization rates were modified, you would start to get utility for all the gold you're spending to refine and reforge. If the boost rates were increased you could see some of the same utility as well.  If it were cheap as anything to forge (i.e., taking an item to 5-gold titan is approximately as expensive and time consuming as 5-bronze titan is currently) then we could be on to something too.

But as things are now, this is a bad deal for the player. It looks nice but it's a bad deal.

(my preference would be to have properly powered items rather than cheap items. If it's too cheap and upgrades are too fast you're constantly babysitting them. Horse vs. ponies again)

Edited by dumpster

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I like the idea of the new forging system. BUT, after refining it to titan gold, the perks have become too low. Players spending so much resources and time in forging should be rewarded with stronger perks instead of it being halved. Rewarding a player means you get more loyalty from them. So, do reconsider the strength of the perks

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@Chris what have you done with the forging system?

Old forging system was the tool for the new accounts to catch up with the old accounts, accounts that are play OR for two or more years.

Now with you super nerfed forging system I can't fight any high ascenion level players that have everything maxed out be barricades,towers, units or gatekeeper.

Please use my account and fight opponents on my map.

I have 9k trophies just few minutes ago reached level 111 but for past two months,

I am finding it hard to beat accounts with 120+ Ascenion level.

Please roll out this update or degraded version of forging.(This is a scam ,guys come on don't play with us ? )

Everyone hates it(including myself too)

Tell me have you noticed increased in the strength of the ancient Defender with your so called patch 4.0.3?

Let me give you an honest feedback you have made gatekeeper even more strong.

Now I am meeting same Gatekeepers that I can defeat prior to that patch with ease now it takes more time to kill them plus some have become immortal in true sense.

Now I miss that old forging system more.

 

Edited by HOLYDIVINE
Correcting Typo errors:)

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So, trying to comply with the new forge rules, I am upgrading this sword, but I get practiacally no benefits at all from forging with a purple 4 star versus a purple 1 star: I just get 5 attack points, and ONE single Area Damage.

Any input to help me understand this?

image.png

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@HOLYDIVINE, you were too dependant on super forges! I remember your multi res statue you had for a while ascension lvl105! 

But yeah its pretty tough now without good forges for the strong heroes, especially attacking guys with some blessings.

@CaptainMorgan, the GK issue Holydivine states is very real, something happened after that update, I've had GK's now I couldn't kill with hades, and the vast majority are far stronger, I avoid GK now almost 100% of the time unless war.  Must be Life on hit stat getting an massive increase or something.

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@Philstar, no it's not Loh.

13 hours ago, SheepSh said:

So, trying to comply with the new forge rules, I am upgrading this sword, but I get practiacally no benefits at all from forging with a purple 4 star versus a purple 1 star: I just get 5 attack points, and ONE single Area Damage.

Any input to help me understand this?

image.png

Yes it seems it works that way but what do I like the most it's the usage of useless items that can be used to make 4*. It's a pity though, those values could be a bit higher as the Gap with the top alliances and their old players will get increased even more.

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so that 1 above forge got an increase of about 2.5% using 4* purple, and around 2.3% with 1* purple.  Personally I'd use all 4* up to titan, but can't justify blowing millions later in the forge process for 0.2% extra if the weighting stays the same at all lvls...

Edited by Philstar
error

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7 hours ago, Philstar said:

so that 1 above forge got an increase of about 2.5% using 4* purple, and around 2.3% with 1* purple.  Personally I'd use all 4* up to titan, but can't justify blowing millions later in the forge process for 0.2% extra if the weighting stays the same at all lvls...

Maybe I am reading your numbers wrongly, and if so, I am sorry, but the difference between dismantling the 1 star and 4 star purple is 1/761th Area Damage.

And the cost of a 4 star purple is (or at least was) a million gold plus a days worth of forging. That's a pretty steep price to pay for 1/761th.

But I guess pretty much everyone in this forum, except the devs find this new forge a ridiculous rip off designed to sell more gems and disrupting the 

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I did those number roughly in my head, but having now got the calculator out.... the use of 1* purple boosts both qualities by 2.299%.   The use of a 4* boosts the top quality by 2.5% and the area damage by only 2.4% (almost certainly due to a low number integer- so it's prob quite close to the next integer (763). 

So actually the difference is 0.2% lower if you use a 1* rather than a 4* in each stage.  Assuming all stages are equal  - green -blue- purple-etc.

I'm guessing that during gold forging, those numbers are probably greater, it seemed Chris was hinting that fact when he mentioned super forging cycles etc

0.2% =1/500     your 1/761th is because of the low integer, when in reality it is 1/500

 

Edited by Philstar
error

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On 7/20/2018 at 9:56 PM, SheepSh said:

So, trying to comply with the new forge rules, I am upgrading this sword, but I get practiacally no benefits at all from forging with a purple 4 star versus a purple 1 star: I just get 5 attack points, and ONE single Area Damage.

Any input to help me understand this?

image.png

I also observe that and wondered about this...

@CaptainMorgan, @Chris:  in the beginning of forging there is only a small difference weather a 1* or 4* item is dismanteled, as already shown here. The question is: is there any (remarkable) benefit later on if an item is only forged with 4* or can similar results also be achieved if sometimes also lower items are used? 

Do you sum up (or multiply up) the %-increase of all forging steps before and this is used to calculate the boost for an actual forge process? e.g. does it matter (beside the base values of an item), if someone finds a new 1* purple item from a chest that has the same values like an 1* purple item that has already 8 forging steps (so started from 1* green) on it: if these two where from now on forged with the "same" items, would the result then be the same (in the first bronce cycle), or does the history of forging (again: beside the actual values) also count (like if the values where always be calculated from their initial base values and a summarized/multiplied %-forge boost). I hope you know what i mean... 

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I can answer part of this @NaN. Ignore the quality (was an item choice error - very weak titan used as a base item), but observe the % increase between use of 1* and 4* during the SILVER forge cycle.  We have already established that during the BRONZE forge cycle increases are 2.5% for 4* and 2.3% for 1*. 

So looking at the results below SILVER forge cycle gives increases to all stats equally (perks and base stats) by 5.5% for using a 4* and 5% for using a 1*.

Hope this helps.

 

Screenshot (54).png

Screenshot (55).png

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20.07.2018 в 22:22, HOLYDIVINE сказал:

@ Крис,  что ты сделал с ковочной системой?

Старая система ковки была инструментом для новых учетных записей, чтобы догнать старые учетные записи, учетные записи, которые играют ИЛИ в течение двух или более лет.

У вас есть все, что должно быть баррикадами, башнями, юнитами или привратником.

Пожалуйста, используйте мою учетную запись и сражайтесь с противниками на моей карте.

У меня есть 9k трофеев всего несколько минут назад, достиг уровня 111, но за последние два месяца,

Мне сложно бить счета с уровнем 120+ Ascenion.

Пожалуйста, разверните это обновление или деградированную версию ковки. (Это мошенничество, ребята, не играйте с нами ?  )

Все его ненавидят (включая меня тоже)

Скажите, вы заметили, что в силу древнего Защитника вы увеличили свой так называемый патч 4.0.3?

Позвольте мне дать вам честную обратную связь, что вы сделали привратника еще более сильным.

Теперь я встречаюсь с теми же гейткиперами, что я могу победить до этого патча с легкостью, теперь требуется больше времени, чтобы убить их, а некоторые стали бессмертными в истинном смысле.

Теперь я скучаю по этой старой ковочной системе.

 

Thanks to the new forging system, we will never be able to get the things that the top players have, with each update the top players become even stronger, and the rest are slowed down. It seems that everything is done for the top players, so that no one could encroach on their place.

Edited by ZuZuu

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28 minutes ago, NaN said:

I also observe that and wondered about this...

@CaptainMorgan, @Chris:  in the beginning of forging there is only a small difference weather a 1* or 4* item is dismanteled, as already shown here. The question is: is there any (remarkable) benefit later on if an item is only forged with 4* or can similar results also be achieved if sometimes also lower items are used? 

Do you sum up (or multiply up) the %-increase of all forging steps before and this is used to calculate the boost for an actual forge process? e.g. does it matter (beside the base values of an item), if someone finds a new 1* purple item from a chest that has the same values like an 1* purple item that has already 8 forging steps (so started from 1* green) on it: if these two where from now on forged with the "same" items, would the result then be the same (in the first bronce cycle), or does the history of forging (again: beside the actual values) also count (like if the values where always be calculated from their initial base values and a summarized/multiplied %-forge boost). I hope you know what i mean... 

It does have an impact because the boosts are somewhat compounding. It still should be a larger boost for using a 4* item. Probably just for any boost, including 1*

Edited by dumpster

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@Philstar, @dumpster: thx for your replys.

I also try to figure out some things, but not fairly sure if its all so simple.

I added some pdf's where i tried to check some screenshot on my own. the green boots came cursed out of a chest. stupidly i stopped making them after a few forging steps, and the item also is not fully forged. i also only compared 1* vs. 4* here, so the table is not complete and also just under the asumption that all have to be multiplied. i am not sure if this is correct, especially if not always a 4* item is used for forging. so there are some "1" in the table with red background, just ignore them. also the last boost from green to blue diverges a little bit from the real values - far more that just beeing rounding errors. so just using fixed multipliers is not the whole truth, perhaps a good approximation e.g. when you always use 4*. and when switching to the next color, the base and the perk seem to have different boosts - or a mixture of a constant boost and a multiplier... 

Interestingly the differences in this particular example are always the same: 27 when using a 1* and 30 when using a 4*. and the value is maybe fixed by the base stats and a multiplier.
[So here maybe: 27 for 1*, 28 for 2*, 29 for 3* and 30 for 4*. (later when this particular item gets blue they seem to be 34 to 38). But this is just for one item...]

What is extremly hard to figure out is what happens when you do not always use 1* or 4* and how values can be predicted then. I (and i asume im not the only one) would be interested in a forging path where e.g. 80% of the maximum reachable stats can also be achieved with 50% of the ressources and time... you know, cost and effort ?

 

image.thumb.png.4036f6600aff5543422fa7ff1eb348d1.png

 

 

new forge boosts (blue, bronce cylce).pdf

new forge boosts (gold, bronce cylce).pdf

new forge boosts (green, bronce cylce).pdf

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It’s diminishing returns the further up the line you go. 

For 1-4* forges, you get a 2.25% boost using a 1 star and a 2.55% boost using a 4 star, all the way up the line (on base stats, not perks). For green items it’s not a big deal. Making a 4* green costs a few thousand gold and 5 gems if you want it instantly. Making a 4* gold (the other color I always have too many of) is very expensive and time consuming, though. Yes, the same 2.55% boost is multiplying a bigger number, so you’re getting more out of it than when you super boost a green, but it’s terrible value. 

The actual boost amount should increase as the expense to forge increases. 

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