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feedback wanted December Dev Q&A - submit your questions

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Exactly. Chris answer’s Arte’s wuestion there. Once you make a unique item gold or silver through the refining process, it requires gold and silver items to further upgrade. Bronze items are not good enough any more. 

I still don’t think it should actually reduce stats when you try to forge with a bronze item. It should do nothing. 

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12 hours ago, dumpster said:

It should do nothing. 

but one does not have to forge with such an item. save ressources.

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Q: when a player levels up (e.g. lvl135->lvl136), we see a reduction on the %-values of resistances or strength and so on. i always hear complaints that heros getting weaker when leveling up. but in my opinion the reduction of the % values is because the BASE-values (which are a part of the % calculation) got up, while the actual values of the items remain the same... 

Do heros get weaker or not? (i think they remain as powerful as before level up, but of course they have not reached their full potential without forging better items)

 

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Ah thanks NaN, that was Chris' answer I couldn't remember :)

But as Dumpster said, I think too that a bronze should do nothing and not decrease. A wrong click and you might destroy the work of months .. especially when being used on handy's small screens such things are always dangerous

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3 minutes ago, NaN said:

Q: when a player levels up (e.g. lvl135->lvl136), we see a reduction on the %-values of resistances or strength and so on. i always hear complaints that heros getting weaker when leveling up. but in my opinion the reduction of the % values is because the BASE-values (which are a part of the % calculation) got up, while the actual values of the items remain the same... 

Do heros get weaker or not? (i think they remain as powerful as before level up, but of course they have not reached their full potential without forging better items)

 

The numeric value remains the same .. say you have a total of 200.000 points of something at level 130 (made up numbers here), the game uses a multiplier to convert it to % and it becomes, say, 50% resistance to something. When you gain a level, the multiplier changes, so the 200.000 remains the same but it gets converted to a lower %, so it becomes, say, 45% resistance.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Dheth said:

But as Dumpster said, I think too that a bronze should do nothing and not decrease. A wrong click and you might destroy the work of months .. especially when being used on handy's small screens such things are always dangerous

agree - as a machanism of protection when miss clicking.

1 hour ago, Dheth said:

The numeric value remains the same .. say you have a total of 200.000 points of something at level 130 (made up numbers here), the game uses a multiplier to convert it to % and it becomes, say, 50% resistance to something. When you gain a level, the multiplier changes, so the 200.000 remains the same but it gets converted to a lower %, so it becomes, say, 45% resistance.

yes. but lets say the multiplier comes from an internal base-value... if we stick to your numerical excample it is 400.000 base resistance  (bc. 50% = 200.000/400.000*100). when leveling this base value changes - it increases due to higher level.... in your excample it becomes 445.000 and therefore 200.000/445.000*100=44,94% or rounded 45%. 
but when the resistance is calculated in game (they need absolute values, i assume), you still get the same protection. so the question is: how is the resistance (or damage...) calculated when playing... you cant compare just % ...

 

edit: sure.. not exact the same. because after calculating the resulting damage from all sources this number reduces the health of the hero... but the base health of heros also increase. isnt it? so unless there is not any huge gap between offence / defence items one should be ok, right?

Edited by NaN

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, NaN said:

agree - as a machanism of protection when miss clicking.

yes. but lets say the multiplier comes from an internal base-value... if we stick to your numerical excample it is 400.000 base resistance  (bc. 50% = 200.000/400.000*100). when leveling this base value changes - it increases due to higher level.... in your excample it becomes 445.000 and therefore 200.000/445.000*100=44,94% or rounded 45%. 
but when the resistance is calculated in game (they need absolute values, i assume), you still get the same protection. so the question is: how is the resistance (or damage...) calculated when playing... you cant compare just % ...

I believe in-game it exactly just use the %. And yes, as you grow up in level but keep the same equipment, the in-game values decrease, making in effect your equipment weaker and weaker (not the hero itself ofc, say, naked hero). So the only % that don't decrease leveling up are the innate heroes bonuses which are usually expressed in %.

Edited by Dheth

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4 minutes ago, Dheth said:

I believe in-game it exactly just use the %. And yes, as you grow up in level but keep the same equipment, the in-game values decrease, making in effect your equipment weaker and weaker (not the hero itself ofc, say, naked hero). So the only % that don't decrease leveling up are the innate heroes bonuses which are usually expressed in %.

right 

 

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1 minute ago, Dheth said:

I believe in-game it exactly just use %

but how (just gave also en edit above... i hope we are not taking over this thread now...)?  i mean, in game the different damage sources have to be reduced by the different protections and the overall result reduces the health of the hero. if protection get a bit lower, but health a bit higher (or also life on hit), it should be kind of equal... but i am also interested in an answer of madlen how this really works, or if heros getting weaker when leveling.

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What counts are the percentages, not the absolute value, to realize this is enough to see the time of recovery of powers when you climb lvl and percentages descend.... you will see increasing the time for the recovery power, also you can see the Value of the "damage" of the heroes that decreases when you climb lvl

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33 minutes ago, vasudeva1 said:

What counts are the percentages, not the absolute value, to realize this is enough to see the time of recovery of powers when you climb lvl and percentages descend.... you will see increasing the time for the recovery power, also you can see the Value of the "damage" of the heroes that decreases when you climb lvl 

yes, this is the fastest method, so I do not go into specifics, otherwise it becomes a long day: P

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this is what i observe for an hero (perseus) with exact the same items for 2 levels: (134->136; i did not make calculations for lvl 135, stupidly). the green values are calculated (phys. resistance has a cut of at 90% and are an approximation of what can happen due to observations. i dont have the formulas/tables or what ever and FG wont tell us. i/we have asked)

all base values have been increased (attack speed and resistances more than leadership, healt and damage), but the overall output of e.g. damage decreases (because the role of attack speed) while leadership and health increases (mastery of health unchanged). the % values of resistances also decreases of course...

 so to answer if a hero gets weaker we need also the way how to calculate damage output of towers /units/... and sadly i have a feeling that FG wont tell us. but i ask now...

image.thumb.png.2e601be2341399495bf34ff5bb2d2a3e.png

 

Q: dear devs: can you please give us a fictive example of how the damage a hero receives is calculated? or also the damage output a hero gives? 

Q: is it possible to answer the question if a hero gets weaker (or maybe also stronger) when leveling up?

 

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16 minutes ago, Artemus said:

yes, this is the fastest method, so I do not go into specifics, otherwise it becomes a long day: P

In fact you do well not to waste time entering the specifications, unfortunately we have to remedy with "artisan" methods to a total lack of transparency

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, NaN said:

this is what i observe for an hero (perseus) with exact the same items for 2 levels: (134->136; i did not make calculations for lvl 135, stupidly). the green values are calculated (phys. resistance has a cut of at 90% and are an approximation of what can happen due to observations. i dont have the formulas/tables or what ever and FG wont tell us. i/we have asked)

all base values have been increased (attack speed and resistances more than leadership, healt and damage), but the overall output of e.g. damage decreases (because the role of attack speed) while leadership and health increases (mastery of health unchanged). the % values of resistances also decreases of course...

 so to answer if a hero gets weaker we need also the way how to calculate damage output of towers /units/... and sadly i have a feeling that FG wont tell us. but i ask now...

image.thumb.png.2e601be2341399495bf34ff5bb2d2a3e.png

 

Q: dear devs: can you please give us a fictive example of how the damage a hero receives is calculated? or also the damage output a hero gives? 

Q: is it possible to answer the question if a hero gets weaker (or maybe also stronger) when leveling up?

 

Health, damage, and leadership all increase on level-up. Other perks decrease when using the same equipment (cooldown, resistances, stun, demolition, etc...)

Builds centered around high damage and health or micromanaging troops will notice level up changes much less than builds centered around cooldown or resistances (or any other percentage-based perks). As you said, they may even feel stronger when they level up. Other builds will definitely feel sluggish after a few level ups with no new gear. That’s why I’ve always advocated leveling up slowly so you have time to find new gear. 

Edited by dumpster

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22 minutes ago, dumpster said:

Health, damage, and leadership all increase on level-up. Other perks decrease when using the same equipment (cooldown, resistances, stun, demolition, etc...)

in the real excample above without doing anything damage decreased from 13.552 down to 13.418 due to the reduction of attack speed and its effect on damage. but if i would not have used attack speed as perk, the damage would go up, true.

 

24 minutes ago, dumpster said:

Builds centered around high damage and health or micromanaging troops will notice level up changes much less than builds centered around cooldown or resistances (or any other perks). As you said, they may even feel stronger when they level up. Other builds will definitely feel sluggish after a few level ups with no new gear. That’s why I’ve always advocated leveling up slowly so you have time to find new gear. 

thanks, that is also what i observe - at least with your notice regarding to damage and health. what do you mean with micromanaging troops?
personally i also prefer to level up slowly with constant forging and preparing items. but the other side of the coin (i assume gems are needed until a certain point; maybe you also get a lot because you have a better def/troops/... than most players...) is, if you reach high/ max level fast you a lot of time to really forge good stuff until the next levels...

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54 minutes ago, Artemus said:

Nan thinks only of the sentences: the objects become old!   Why do you think?

good day -- ciao ciao 

 

 

items become old over time not at the point when you level up. their values do not decrease. so i am interested in the mechanism behind how things are affected and why some heros have the tendency of being weaker while others feel stronger. of course constantly forging is necessary to unleash the strenght of heros and of course with the last update they also changed something with the perks (e.g. regeneration or frostbite) which is (instantanly) good for some heros.

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Posted (edited)
On 1/6/2019 at 1:49 PM, NaN said:

Q: dear devs: can you please give us a fictive example of how the damage a hero receives is calculated? or also the damage output a hero gives? 

Q: is it possible to answer the question if a hero gets weaker (or maybe also stronger) when leveling up?

 

A simple way to understand it, is that as you grow levels (ascension), there is bigger need of a perk value (all the % wise perks), to get to 1% of that perk and each perk.

So if level 131 you need 5750 for 1% CD, then on level 132 its 6030, and on level 137 its 7650... the magic difference, is in my opinion one base-forge per level again. I run into this several times in the game, and it explains a lot.

It's planned excellently... until now, all the factors for hero building, are evenly distributed, and as you level up, you just improve your perks. So your hero gets weaker in the perks were there is a %. Revised: Health/Damage/Leadership might increase slightly every level, but do not affect so much the output (especially health)

As for damage output, if you mean calculation, I think I gave you that. If you mean how it goes out on towers/powers/units/gate or even GK, I am also interested in that very much.

Edited by Archimides
Checked my notes

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9 hours ago, Archimides said:

So if level 131 you need 5750 for 1% CD, then on level 132 its 6030, and on level 137 its 7650... the magic difference, is in my opinion one base-forge per level again. I run into this several times in the game, and it explains a lot.

yes, that thing with one base-forge is a cool idea, i like it.

9 hours ago, Archimides said:

It's planned excellently... until now, all the factors for hero building, are evenly distributed, and as you level up, you just improve your perks. So your hero gets weaker in the perks were there is a %. Revised: Health/Damage/Leadership might increase slightly every level, but do not affect so much the output (especially health)

yes, the base-values for resistances increase more (~5% each level) as damage (~2.5%), health (~2%) o leadership (~1.3%). and damage can drop because of the reduction of attack speed perk, as we discussed. imho health (and its combination with LoH) is important when leveling.

10 hours ago, Archimides said:

As for damage output, if you mean calculation, I think I gave you that. If you mean how it goes out on towers/powers/units/gate or even GK, I am also interested in that very much.

yes the pure damage output we have an idea of how it works. but what about damage per second (e.g. does a hero with higher attack speed sings his sword more often per second as a hero without, and doing therefore more damage, etc.)? or it would also be cool to verify those calculations. but i am also more interested now in an understanding of how e.g. an apollo tower deals out damage to an hero (or what is refected, absorbed, and so on) and also apollo can be dogged - so when do you get hit and when not... and things like that .

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, NaN said:

yes, that thing with one base-forge is a cool idea, i like it.

yes, the base-values for resistances increase more (~5% each level) as damage (~2.5%), health (~2%) o leadership (~1.3%). and damage can drop because of the reduction of attack speed perk, as we discussed. imho health (and its combination with LoH) is important when leveling.

yes the pure damage output we have an idea of how it works. but what about damage per second (e.g. does a hero with higher attack speed sings his sword more often per second as a hero without, and doing therefore more damage, etc.)? or it would also be cool to verify those calculations. but i am also more interested now in an understanding of how e.g. an apollo tower deals out damage to an hero (or what is refected, absorbed, and so on) and also apollo can be dogged - so when do you get hit and when not... and things like that .

For other people reading as well: The base-forge, which is the percentage of a clean 1* forge for each main or perk power, is already shown on your excel for 2 levels... it's just 1.05 * 1.05 which is a bit higher than 1.10. It all makes sense. I have been using this for years. People ask me how I know that a green 1* CD on level 150 will be approximately (higher end) 45-47k give or take 2% -> thats how. And you can estimate if you jump 4 levels in ascension, how my CD will drop, and what do I need to do? Well, if you just find a really high end cape, max forge it and compare it to the one you have now, it will tell you how much you lose and how much you can possibly get back (if you find that high green cape - 4 levels later).

Damage is 2.3% as is area damage, the rest are correct (loh is also 2%) and cursed perks are also 5%.

I got some info from dumpster that he found out hear I assume, that for example powers are x3 on towers, and time element is disregarded... which is silly. Ok towers are not moving, so you either hit them or not, its going to get the full attack. But what about Odysseus poison power, and ice power, which is not constant for the whole duration of the spells if you are moving. Reminder that spells have different durations... So what happens then? We need this info visible...

And what about units? A unit might be charging at you from way across the path from a wave... you hit talos... suddently the Cyclops enter the talos "field" in last 2 seconds. Then what? Do the seconds count there? And these things ARE important. Why? Because I can plan my attack if I know the specifics. Talos can take out a Nyx right? Not if its too weak, and the Nyx is maxed out on current new levels... Who here, doesn't hit talos on a tight corner with Nyx and run for the next tower, thinking "will be destroyed". Well... turns out a few 97%'s later, and a test on a friend showed the truth... And this is one example...

Edited by Archimides

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46 minutes ago, HOLYDIVINE said:

Hey @Madlen it is December is over you haven't closed thus thread and answered our questions.

Also what about that festival reward?

 

On 11/30/2018 at 11:28 AM, Madlen said:

A selected range of questions will be answered most likely at the beginning of January due to the holidays. 🎅

 

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1 hour ago, HOLYDIVINE said:

Hey @Madlen it is December is over you haven't closed thus thread and answered our questions.

Also what about that festival reward?

The festival reward is currently being checked. I hope to have everything finished by the end of the week/beginning of next week.

For the dev answers - see dumpster's quote of my text ;)

Thank you!

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