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Madlen

feedback wanted Ice Ice Bab...uhm Viking

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Hi there,

We talked internally about this. Why are the Vikings weak to ice? It was a decision back then but we are ready to look into it more closely and to revert it possibly (making them resistant to ice). We would be interested in hearing your opinion.

Shoot!

viking chilly.png

 

 

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Defensive Vikings
Vikings are already very good in defense if you have both boosts. If you only have the Elite OR the Conquest boost, Vikings are still good.

The top alliances are already using Vikings in their defenses pretty effectively.

 

Offensive Viking

In offense they can be used effectively if you have both boosts. The Shield+Battlecry (Conquest boost) are very usefull.

The downside, from what I've seen, is that it requires very specific combos for Vikings to work and sometimes they're only usefull as insta troops.

Buffing the offensive Viking would make it's usage rate go up.

 

Balance

Viking's Ice weakness is really only relevant when talking about the defensive Viking. It makes them very weak against Frosters (super popular right now) and Fritz.

Right now they have 100% ice weakness. Instead of changing it all the way to 100% ice resistance, I would suggest just removing (or reducing) the ice weakness for now and see how it goes.

When balancing, it's always better to make smaller adjustments than bigger ones.

Edited by ARREBIMBA

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alright stop..collaborate and listen

a Viking's favorite song is actually 'Hey Baby is SKOL outside'

hip hop wasn't invented yet

everybody knows that

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3 minutes ago, LacunaC said:

Absolutely support this. Really sick of the fact that there's 0 counter to Fritz. If this is implemented, it will definitely bring back some depth to the game. I hope this is immediately implemented after Conquest =D

Not true.

Paladin/Froster combos are still stronger than any other combos (including Fritz combos).

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7 minutes ago, ARREBIMBA said:

Not true.

Paladin/Froster combos are still stronger than any other combos (including Fritz combos).

Your statement doesn't correlate to mine. I am not comparing combos, I'm saying there's no counter to fritz, regardless of whether it's the strongest combo or not.

 

As to whether that's the strongest combo or not, that's subjective. I'm merely suggesting that there should be some form of counter to every kind of strategy to add depth to the game.

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9 minutes ago, LacunaC said:

Your statement doesn't correlate to mine. I am not comparing combos, I'm saying there's no counter to fritz, regardless of whether it's the strongest combo or not.

 

As to whether that's the strongest combo or not, that's subjective. I'm merely suggesting that there should be some form of counter to every kind of strategy to add depth to the game.

You said there were no counters and that's just not true. There are counters and experienced Fritz users will tell you the same.

 

Additionaly (and this is how it correlates), it's really not about the quantity or quality of the counters. What really matters is what you can accomplish with a specific combo.

For example, there are counters to the usual Paladin combos, but it is still one of the most effective combos out there (if not the most, actually). Your raiding videos are proof of that. Even with those counters in the game, the combo is so strong (in the hands of a skilled and experienced player) that it just works anyway.

Same thing goes for Froster combos.

Edited by ARREBIMBA

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7 minutes ago, ARREBIMBA said:

You said there were no counters and that's just not true. There are counters and experienced Fritz users will tell you the same.

 

Additionaly (and this is how it correlates), it's really not about the quantity or quality of the counters. What really matters is what you can accomplish with a specific combo.

For example, there are counters to the usual Paladin combos, but it is still one of the most effective combos out there (if not the most, actually). Your raiding videos are proof of that. Even with those counters in the game, the combo is so strong (in the hands of a skilled and experienced player) that it just works anyway.

Same thing goes for Froster combos.

If this were true, then more reason there shouldn't be any problem implementing it, since it doesn't really affect paladin combos, while giving an additional counter option against fritz users.

 

If there's a problem with paladin combo being too powerful, then imo, it should be addressed separately by introducing even more counters to paladins.

 

When more counters are introduced, then bases can finally pick how they want to defend their bases properly, by either having a balanced defense or one that goes to the extreme of hard countering a specific combo.

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2 hours ago, Madlen said:

Hi there,

We talked internally about this. Why are the Vikings weak to ice? It was a decision back then but we are ready to look into it more closely and to revert it possibly (making them resistant to ice). We would be interested in hearing your opinion.

Shoot!

viking chilly.png

 

I always saw this as something related to the shield which is the main thing about Viking, because freezing things make them brittle and easier to break, right??
Same reason why I understand his Fire weakness as well, it's not about Viking, it's about his shield.

Anyways...

Would you give him a new weakness to replace Ice or just let the Fire one?

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2 hours ago, LacunaC said:

If this were true, then more reason there shouldn't be any problem implementing it, since it doesn't really affect paladin combos, while giving an additional counter option against fritz users.

What I'm saying is that it makes no sense to ask for more counters against weaker combos. They're weaker already. And Fritz's combos have plenty of counters already (enough counters to prevent them from being OP, or even the most powerfull combos in the game).

And btw, defensive Vikings are already a nice counter against Fritz's combos (they're probably better than they are against Paladins).

 

2 hours ago, LacunaC said:

If there's a problem with paladin combo being too powerful, then imo, it should be addressed separately by introducing even more counters to paladins.

 

When more counters are introduced, then bases can finally pick how they want to defend their bases properly, by either having a balanced defense or one that goes to the extreme of hard countering a specific combo.

I didn't say Paladin combos were too powerfull, I just pointed out that they were more powerfull than Fritz's combos, even though they have more counters.

I used this as a clear cut example to argue that the amount/variety of counters to a specific combo is not relevant. What is revelant is the power ceilling of said combo, what you can achieve with that combo.

This is a very important detail.

 

You can throw 10 counters against combo A and no counters against combo B. If combo A is still stronger than B, it proves that the amount of counters is completely irrelevant.

Edited by ARREBIMBA

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I don't know seem logic. viking have a Shield. 100% Ice weakness seem logic to me. However for the rest 50% Fire not sure. They are close naked with a wooden shield. they should be 100% Ice and Fire weakness. No Armor,no clothes,etc..Revert this to resistance make no sense sorry.They have a shield they should be 100% Resist to normal attack or at least 75% too

So 100% Ice and Fire Weakness and 75% Normal Attack Resist. this way will be more logic.

If you change this for 100% Ice Resist and 50% Fire Weakness with 50% Normal attack resist make no sense. Anyway we all know they ask but will make him resist to 100% Ice. We all know Flare have no logic in what they done since day 1. Maerique and others have create a lots of topic about few troops with no sense weakness and resist. Flare don't listen so whatever we said. They will make Viking 100% ice resist anyway their idea was already make and this will destroy the balance in the game. End of discussion. No big surprise we all know the song since 2014

Edited by Warriornator

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It's sad to see that the viking has a weakness of 100% to ice damage, while the necromancer hasn't weakness to fire damage. Moreover, the monk and the arblaster are the only units without resistances, while the froster is the only unit with ice resistance (without considering ninja, zombie and yeti).

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Given so many defensive units that are weak to ice, gargs, arbs, wolves, necros and for that matter howl beast too, I wouldn't mind Viking being resistant to ice. To be very frank, despite being used a lot, I don't really face a challenge against them.

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As Arrebimba said, Vikings are already very good, especially when boosted with either their Conquest or Elite Boost. However, it really doesn't make any logical sense why they are weak to ice. I definitely agree that they should be resistant to ice, however, as others have pointed out, they should be weak to fire because, as Vikings, they are accustomed to the cold, so...yeah

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As most of the towers and obstacles and troops people use, that are weak to ice I suggest viking should have another weakness that is not fire and not ice.

Furthermore:

And with mount introduction they re even weaker, because if you use fritz while riding donkey and using his ability at the same time as fritz”slide” Fritz is going to parcour twice the normal distance he does and so touching even more units weak to ice in its path.

Well Defense nowadays is ether weak to ice or fire ...Why the dragon are actually really Op

 

Edited by Alumbri
And also did you know while using donkey and dragon while turning on dragon animation you can use 2x donkeys ability when well timed?! Dragon and donkey is op.

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There are too many things that are weak to ice right now, making Fritz very good. Believe me, I like that Fritz is awesome haha, but, it just seems like there are a lot of other spells, pals, and even Guardians being left out because of this. If the Viking becomes resistant to ice and weak to fire, it's just one step towards expanding the use of spells, pals, and guardians

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In my opinion, the expensive Viking (16 unit points) is too weak,

even with Conquest Boost he is only in the defense to use.

Equipping him with ice resistance is a good start, but not the end of song ...

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@Madlen

From what I can tell, the issue with Vikings is three-fold at the moment:

  • They suck in their basic form in both Offense and Defense, which is further extrapolated when not Forged.
  • Forging them costs A LOT.
  • They suck without the Conquest Boost.

As a result, they are almost never seen in Defense Wave layouts, because un-boosted they just offer too little compared to the Werewolf's Howl. When they are boosted, however, they're potentially a better unit, and that is when you start seeing players use them in ther Defenses, which is after each Conquest. Obtaining the buff, though, isn't that easy, as it requires your Alliance to score as 1st in a Conquest.

That said, I can see how you thought they should be weak to Ice at first, as I presume your initial design idea was for Vikings to somewhat replace the Werewolf unit. Thematically, however, I agree that they shouldn't be weak to Ice (let that be Werewolves weakness). Since they have a Shield equipped, they also shouldn't be weak to Piercing damage either. There's enough units weak to Firestorm as it is already. They also appear to currently have no Resistance or Weakness at all (at least going by their Stats Description screen in the Troop Academy), so what could we give them?

Given you've boosted and then nerfed Bladestorm a while ago, Normal damage could be their weakness. Or perhaps give them Poison Weakness, so that Toxic Could would see a bit more play (no reason to use right now it unless you're boasting a mix of high-cost Units). Alternatively, we could think of introducing new Weakness types fo the game, for example Scream Weakness, where if the Hero uses their Scream ability, they'd take x1.5 more damage from Hero's Attacks during said Scream period.

However, I believe that isn't the core issue with the unit, and giving (or changing) their Weakness won't make them any better or more used, because the main issue is that they remain too weak of a Unit without any Conquest/War/Alliance/Pro boosts.

Giving them a Shield ability by default could change that, as then picking them in your Defense would be an actual strategic decision. I know I would surely drop off a few Wolves in my Defense in exchange for a couple Vikings, if it meant my Units would get Shielded as a result. And then the Conquest boost, instead of giving them a Shield ability they normally do not have, would only serve to boost it instead, as it'd already exist on Viking's Vanilla form.

Units in Defense are usually used for 3 things:

  • Their Durability.
  • Their Attack.
  • Their Ability.

And the problem with Viking's Forging Options is that they have one completely useless one, which is the Attack Rate Bonus. Anyone who has played against a Conquest-Boosted Viking can tell that they CAN be a deadly unit when they unleash their Knockback Ability, and that is where the units potential lies, not in increasing their Attack Speed, because this simply IS NOT an Offensive unit by any stretch, not in its current form, anyway. That said, I think you should replace their Attack Rate Bonus with a Knockback Cooldown decrease bonus. That would surely make them a far more enticing unit to use.

it's been a weird unit ever since it was introduced into the game. Sometimes I feel like you guys forgot that each new unit you introduce not only has to be interesting and good on its own, but also has to find a new niche to fill, as it will always compete with existing units, in this case Viking competes with Werewolf, and sadly has nothing to offer without the Alliance & Conquest boosts compared to our beloved Woofer.

That's the direction I'd go with changing Vikings, anyway.

Edited by AzureKnight

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@AzureKnight great comment and analysis.

Double boosted Vikings are already very good in defense and they can be decent in offense (with the right combo).

I think Vikings' usage rate would increase if the regular/unboosted version was buffed. I really liked the Shield by default suggestion.

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My main problem with the Defensive Viking (and perhaps the Offensive as well), is that if they get hit by Ice Damage, which slows them down, they become extremely easy to take down. Because it takes them 2 or 3 seconds to load up their strike, with the slowdown on, they won't get their attack off before the king and his troops kills him

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